Manual speed difference

    Hello all,

    This week I have got a call from one customer telling me he can notice a difference in manual speed between the two last robots I've installed in their factory.

    He programs fluently the robot trajectories and of course, is aware of the manual speed and the program execution speed.

    NEWER ROBOT
    Robot: KUKA Roboter KR 60/3
    Cabinet: KRC4 SC6.1 X11 X66 ES
    KRC V8.5.8 Build 0465.
     Installed Option Packages: DiagnosisSafety (V 3.0.0.63), ExpertTech (V 3.3.0.34), GripperSpotTech (V 4.1.4.51), KUKA.DeviceConnector pre-installed 2.1 (V 2.1.2.341), UserTech (V 3.4.2.14)
    OLDER ROBOT
    Robot: KUKA Roboter RP KR 60/3
    Cabinet: KRC4 RP SC6.1 X11 X51 X66 ES
    KRC V8.3.36 Build 0403.
    Installed Option Packages: GripperSpotTech (V 4.0.7.73), LoadDataDetermination (V 6.2.7.27), Profinet KRC-Nexxt (V 3.3.1.8), UserTech (V 3.3.5.81)

    Notice that in automatic mode both robots take exactly the same time to process the same program (no speed difference between both in auto).

    Is there any change you are aware between those KSS versions that could result in different manual speeds?

    Any system variable that could reflect this behavior?

    As always thank you in advance for your time and help.

    None that I am aware of. I Would try to get a KRCDiag or and then make a diff. Especially files in folder R1/mada and Steu/mada have data that define how fast you can run in T1. Also safety configurations brings additional limits.

    BTW are we talking from differences in jogging or in running a program in T1 mode. Both things often are called manual mode by customers but are different things on how they are handled and which machine data influences t1 velocities.

    Fubini

    Hi all, sorry for the delay answering, been super busy till now.

    Fubini we are speaking about executing the program in T1.

    He just explained me that when the movement does not involve the axis 6 then the speed is good, but when the axis 6 is involved, then the speed is super slow.

    The differences I can see are:

    \Files\KRC\Roboter\KRC\R1\Mada\$robcor.dat

    Newest robot (slowest robot)Oldest robot
    BOOL $SPECIAL_CONTROL_T1=FALSE ;Verwendung des konfigurierten Reglerparamters in T1Nothing here


    \Files\KRC\Roboter\KRC\R1\Mada\$machine.dat

    Newest robot (slowest robot)Oldest robot
    INT $BRK_DEL=20000 ;BREMSVERZOEGERUNGSZEIT [MS]INT $BRK_MODE='B0101' ;BREMSENSTEUERUNGS-MODUS INT $BRK_DEL_COM=10000 ;BREMSVERZOEGERUNGSZEIT KOMMANDO-MODUS [MS] INT $BRK_DEL_PRO=20000 ;BREMSVERZOEGERUNGSZEIT IM PROGRAMM [MS] INT $BRK_DEL_EX=200 ;BREMSVERZOEGERUNGSZEIT FUER ZUSATZACHSEN
    $INC_AXIS[2]=0.000500000
    $INC_AXIS[3]=0.000500000
    $INC_AXIS[4]=0.002000000
    $INC_AXIS[5]=0.00200000
    $INC_AXIS[6]=0.00200000    		$INC_AXIS[2]=0.00500000
    $INC_AXIS[3]=0.00500000
    $INC_AXIS[4]=0.00500000
    $INC_AXIS[5]=0.00500000
    $INC_AXIS[6]=0.00500000
    Nothing hereDECL REAL $SR_CART_BRK_POLY[8,2] ; POLYGONZUG DER MAXIMALEN KARTESISCHEN BREMSWEGE $SR_CART_BRK_POLY[1,1]=0.0 $SR_CART_BRK_POLY[1,2]=0.0 $SR_CART_BRK_POLY[2,1]=0.0 $SR_CART_BRK_POLY[2,2]=0.0 $SR_CART_BRK_POLY[3,1]=0.0 $SR_CART_BRK_POLY[3,2]=0.0 $SR_CART_BRK_POLY[4,1]=0.0 $SR_CART_BRK_POLY[4,2]=0.0 $SR_CART_BRK_POLY[5,1]=0.0 $SR_CART_BRK_POLY[5,2]=0.0 $SR_CART_BRK_POLY[6,1]=0.0 $SR_CART_BRK_POLY[6,2]=0.0 $SR_CART_BRK_POLY[7,1]=0.0 $SR_CART_BRK_POLY[7,2]=0.0 $SR_CART_BRK_POLY[8,1]=0.0 $SR_CART_BRK_POLY[8,2]=0.0 DECL MAXTOOL $SR_MAX_TOOL={LOAD_CM_R 0.0,LOAD_CM_Z 0.0,LOAD_M 0.0,LOAD_J 0.0,TOOL_R 0.0,TOOL_Z 0.0} ; TOOLGRENZEN FUER GUELTIGKEIT VON $SR_CART_BRK_POLY DECL REAL $SR_TIME_D=0.0 ;REAKTIONSZEIT DSE-DREHZAHLSTOPP DECL REAL $SR_TIME_N=0.100000 ;REAKTIONSZEIT NOTAUS


    \Files\KRC\Roboter\KRC\STEU\Mada\$custom.dat

    Newest robot (slowest robot)Oldest robot
    BOOL $IMPROVED_COLLMON=TRUE ;Schalter Verbesserte Kollisionserkennung INT $COLLMON_TOL_PRO_DEF[12] ;Verbesserte Kollisionserkennung: Default-Sensibilitaetseinstellung Programm $COLLMON_TOL_PRO_DEF[1]=0 ;Achse 1 $COLLMON_TOL_PRO_DEF[2]=0 ;Achse 2 $COLLMON_TOL_PRO_DEF[3]=0 ;Achse 3 $COLLMON_TOL_PRO_DEF[4]=0 ;Achse 4 $COLLMON_TOL_PRO_DEF[5]=0 ;Achse 5 $COLLMON_TOL_PRO_DEF[6]=0 ;Achse 6 $COLLMON_TOL_PRO_DEF[7]=0 ;Achse 7 $COLLMON_TOL_PRO_DEF[8]=0 ;Achse 8 $COLLMON_TOL_PRO_DEF[9]=0 ;Achse 9 $COLLMON_TOL_PRO_DEF[10]=0 ;Achse 10 $COLLMON_TOL_PRO_DEF[11]=0 ;Achse 11 $COLLMON_TOL_PRO_DEF[12]=0 ;Achse 12 INT $COLLMON_TOL_COM_DEF[12] ;Verbesserte Kollisionserkennung: Default-Sensibilitaetseinstellung Kommando $COLLMON_TOL_COM_DEF[1]=0 ;Achse 1 $COLLMON_TOL_COM_DEF[2]=0 ;Achse 2 $COLLMON_TOL_COM_DEF[3]=0 ;Achse 3 $COLLMON_TOL_COM_DEF[4]=0 ;Achse 4 $COLLMON_TOL_COM_DEF[5]=0 ;Achse 5 $COLLMON_TOL_COM_DEF[6]=0 ;Achse 6 $COLLMON_TOL_COM_DEF[7]=0 ;Achse 7 $COLLMON_TOL_COM_DEF[8]=0 ;Achse 8 $COLLMON_TOL_COM_DEF[9]=0 ;Achse 9 $COLLMON_TOL_COM_DEF[10]=0 ;Achse 10 $COLLMON_TOL_COM_DEF[11]=0 ;Achse 11 $COLLMON_TOL_COM_DEF[12]=0 ;Achse 12Nothing here


    I've just received a video in which I can see the robot executing the program at a very slow speed when the 6th axis rotates.

    The speed overrides are at 100%.

    MOM The manual override is at 100% in both robots.

    Just finished another call with that customer... It seems he has different accelerations in both robots... Maybe this will be the reason... Much easier than a pesky and hidden parameter that could give us problems.

    Now they are producing parts and they can't stop the machine, but this Saturday he will call me and I will help him to make a control program to compare both robots performance.

    Thank you both for your messages!

    :thumbs_up:

    panic mode after BCO.

    As far as I know, both movement types are affected the same way.

    But today my customer told me he has different acceleration settings.

    This Saturday he will try to set a 3 points program that can run exactly in both robots and then we will see...

    He started telling me everything was the same... And now it seems it is not.

    I will post more information about this all after his call this Saturday.

    Thanks for your answer.

    :thumbs_up:

    Hi again,

    After speaking with my customer again, I can tell:

    1. there are 2 KRC4 robots that behave different.

    2. the oldest one (see first post please for KSS versions) does not suffer from this behavior.

    3. logics in the programs are almost the same (there are slight changes that has nothing to do with speeds).

    4. the robot is programmed using EXPERT TECH syntax :

    PTP {X 304.63, Y -14.55, Z 181.53, A 93.89, B -1.3, C -179.34, S 2., T 10.}

    and the speeds are programmed like:

    $VEL.CP=3.0
    $VEL.ORI1=400.0
    $VEL.ORI2=400.0

    5. In automatic external mode the problem does not seem to appear.

    6. when my customer resets the program and starts it, robot goes XHOME and halts (halt instruction at line 48).

    6.1. then my customer press start again and the robot launches the main logics of the cell. At this point the robot call the function U_PieceInRobP13() to check if there is a part into the clamp. THE ONLY MOVEMENT IN THAT FUNCTION WHILE IN MANUAL MODE IS SUPER SLOW.

    7. If my customer restarts the program and allows the robot to reach HOME, but then, instead of pressing again START selects the line 51 with the U_PieceInRobP13() function call, then the movement in that function is fast.

    8. I've asked him to put the function call just after the HALT that's after the HOME movement and the behavior has been the same.

    9. To avoid BCO issues, after that HALT (line 50), I've also asked him to write PTP $POS_ACT, but the next movement has also been slow.

    The code at the beginning of the program looks like this:

    The contents of U_PieceInRobP13 are:


    I've asked him to check the values of $ACC and $ACC_AXIS[1..6] in both robots and both are the same.

    The advance pointer value is $ADVANCE = 3 in both robots too.

    I could understand the fact that the first movement would be slow while doing the BCO, but if the first movement is PTP $ACT_POS it should avoid the next movement to be slow at all...

    Notice the newest robot has SET_CD_PARAMS (0) inside the HOME fold. I guess this has relationship with Collision Detection as I have been able to see this appeared in the configuration files of the newest robot.

    Am I missing something stupid?

    As always, thank you very much for your time and help.

    Is this behaviour close to singularities? Do those robots have absolute accuracy? What is set for $CP_VEL_TYPE on both machines?

    Any messages in logbook?

    Also Check Main Run variables $vel_axis_c[], $acc_axis_c[] during execution. Also checking load data might be useful if it's a ptp. Maybe swap to sptp instead of ptp just to check could be useful as well.

    Just ideas on what might be different.

    Fubini

    I don't know if this is correlated to your issue but I noticed on KSS 8.5.6 slow movements when running the PTP and LIN in T1, especially when it changes from LIN to PTP, and then when changing the same points to SLIN and SPTP they behave as I would expect in T1. In auto no difference at all. I did not dig deeper on that to tell you more information but the difference in the speed was huge.

    Yes by switching these types you get fundamentally different solutions on how KRC treats speed reductions to be safe in T1. I have explained this for a switch from LIN to PTP in the past in the german partner forum here:

    https://www.roboterforum.de/roboter-forum/…82202#post82202

    The quick deepl translation is as follows:

    This is due to reductions like $red_t1. This is added to the override in T1. If you have programmed slow speeds in a PTP movement, it will be even slower. By the way, this is no longer the case with Spline. There is always limited to 250 mm/s no matter if LIN or PTP, because there are no more factors like $red_t1.

    Such general factors usually have historical reasons. In the past, PTP could not be limited to Cartesian 250 mm/s as a pure movement in the axis space. In the meantime this is possible via $speed_limit_teach_mode. But for compatibility you won't get rid of the old method as default. But you can change it somewhere ($custom.dat?). I don't remember the name of the variable, $Red_t1_ov or something like that.

    Quote from Fubini

    Yes by switching these types you get fundamentally different solutions on how KRC treats speed reductions to be safe in T1. I have explained this for a switch from LIN to PTP in the past in the german partner forum here:

    https://www.roboterforum.de/roboter-forum/…82202#post82202

    The quick deepl translation is as follows:

    This is due to reductions like $red_t1. This is added to the override in T1. If you have programmed slow speeds in a PTP movement, it will be even slower. By the way, this is no longer the case with Spline. There is always limited to 250 mm/s no matter if LIN or PTP, because there are no more factors like $red_t1.

    Such general factors usually have historical reasons. In the past, PTP could not be limited to Cartesian 250 mm/s as a pure movement in the axis space. In the meantime this is possible via $speed_limit_teach_mode. But for compatibility you won't get rid of the old method as default. But you can change it somewhere ($custom.dat?). I don't remember the name of the variable, $Red_t1_ov or something like that.

    Hello! It turns out that in T1 mode, the robot itself can change the speed of movement regardless of the speeds set by the user?

    So what is the solution then? I also got a new robot and the PTP speeds in T1 mode are unbearably slow.

    SPTP movements have a reasonable speed.

    I cannot find what Fubini said.

    Quote

    But you can change it somewhere ($custom.dat?). I don't remember the name of the variable, $Red_t1_ov or something like that.

    Do I just change all the PTP movements to SPTP or is there a better solution?

    there is no answer to that since you provided no reference. "unbearably slow" is very subjective, there need to be a number. standards like 10218 make speed limit value explicit....

    and there could be several reasons for perceived low speed (acceleration value too low, speed limited by safety controller etc.) to really dive in and find the root cause one would need to know more. if you have a new robot and there is ANY problem with it, contact manufacturer... and send the KRCDiag.

    1) read pinned topic: READ FIRST...

    2) if you have an issue with robot, post question in the correct forum section... do NOT contact me directly

    3) read 1 and 2

    I think I managed to delete half of my post before posting.

    A new Scara robot with KSS 8.7.4, straight out of the box.

    A blank SRC file with just:

    BAS(#INITMOV, 0)
    SPTP XHOME

    SPTP MYPOINT
    SPTP XHOME

    Is behaving like expected... ca 250 mm/s in T1 mode.

    Whereas the same thing with PTP movements is like 10 times slower.

    BAS(#INITMOV, 0)

    PTP XHOME

    PTP MYPOINT

    PTP XHOME

    No problems with speed in T2 on AUT modes.

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