Posts by Dekatronic

Hey dieselxj,

Don’t know if you got my last response…

Did you learn anything conclusive about the American Rotary converters?

Just wondered if you managed to make any more progress…

Thanks,

Deke

Hi dieselxj,

Sorry for the delayed response… I thought the thread was dead when responses stopped coming in!

What did you think about American Rotary? They seemed legit, but I personally didn’t like the different answers they gave me, depending on who it was… You would think they would agree on which RPC would work well - and which wouldn’t.

I’ve heard from a few people that said they used an RPC and were able to power up the system - and according to them, it worked! But there are other people that warn of DIRE CONSEQUENCES, which makes me hesitant to try.

I’d love to hear of any progress you are able to make.

Best,

Deke

Dear panic mode,

Thanks for your reply.

Well, I tried to present my questions as clearly as I could... On other forums that I've joined in the past, if a member that is trying to help another needs specific information in order to understand the issue -for example a photo or specs - they usually ask the person that posted the question to provide the additional info that would help them answer the question. I could easily fill my posts with Yaskawa manuals, photos of the inside of my controller, etc. - but I thought this would be "jumping the gun" and

didn't want to upload tons of files without knowing if they were needed. I'll try to upload the Yaskawa manual for the XRC controller in this post. If I understood correctly, I am only allowed one attachment per post.

I guess I see now that, to you, I am like some of the advertising clients I used to deal with who would ask me for my recommendations on the best camera for their personal use. I would try to provide an honest answer, but it was ludicrous in a way because there are just too many variables to be able to provide a really meaningful answer. I am sorry that I don't know more.

Being an electrical engineer, you seemed to be the type of person who might know the pitfalls of what I'm trying to do, and might help me to avoid unnecessary disasters. It's like asking my doctor questions about some physical symptoms that might be bothering me... I could Google all the medical sites and try to cram a medical education in a few days time, but it would not come near having someone who is knowledgeable and experienced take a look at the problem and give me their educated opinion.

In any case, I sincerely want to thank you for your time and effort. I will go back and delete all my past Posts, and will hope that someone who has had an experience that might help me - will see this post and respond.

Lastly, here is the brochure for the XRC controller ... It is not as informative as the full manual, but it is all I could find on the Motoman site that was under 8MB. I will post this for anyone that is interested.

Best Wishes,

Deke

Dear Kwakisaki,

Thanks so much for your reply. I appreciate your clarity and your attempt to offer some help without including a side-order of Derision.

To All Members Who Have Read My Posts: I apologize for wasting your time. I guess I got mislead by thinking of my robot as "Industrial", where I should have looked for forum that caters more to Hobbyists who happen to have an Industrial Robot, than to Industrial professionals.

I kept posting thinking that I might have a better chance of finding the answers I need if I kept refreshing my question rather than letting it sink to the bottom of the pile. I must have missed the rule about NOT posting multiple times. Mea Culpa!

Kwakisaki, do you recommend that I go back over my posts and Delete them all, except for this current one?

Needless to say, I will not beat a dead horse by posting again on this forum. If a member has affinity with my situation and can offer some advice, I would be grateful.

Kwakisaki, I will try following some of your other suggestions.

Thanks to everyone for your help.

Cheers!

Deke

Dear Panic,

I am sorry that I didn't include all the information you thought I should have included... But I do not expect ANYONE to do research for me or provide easy, pat answers to my questions. I do not think that my fate in humanity is greater than yours - or anyone else's for that matter. But I must tell you that your attitude is making me think I should just find another website forum.

Perhaps I thought this website was something that was intended to help and encourage people that are less knowledgeable and gifted than you obviously are. I humbly beg your pardon, sir!

After yesterday's response from you, I did post some info in the Bio section on who I am and I included my website address, so you could see what I feel are my core talents. I am a cinematographer and film director who thinks they are somewhat handy and mechanically oriented. I am trying to learn what I need to know to get my robot working and use it as a camera platform to shoot some beautiful footage of jewelry, beer, liquor pouring, and other interesting subjects to attract new clients and hopefully continue to make a living.

Like I said, I am NOT an engineer. I don't have an electrician's license and I've never worked with 3-phase power before. But I'm not an idiot either, and I resent your insinuations. I've been posting on this website in various forums for several months now, hoping to connect with SOMEONE who has done what I'm trying to accomplish, or knows things that I don't. Does every human being need to re-invent the wheel for themselves?

Since you said you don't know the Motoman XRC very well, perhaps I should just thank you for your time and let you get on with your busy life.

PS: My XRC controller is from 1999. It is called the XRC. Not an XRC 2001. I have whatever technical info that Yaskawa put up on their website. To me, it was less than enlightening in terms of what I was trying to find out.

And if I did cobble together a RPC myself, I would definitely test the Hell out of it before trying to power up my robot. That leads to other questions I have: If the robot load and current demands keep changing, how effective IS IT to try to balance the RPC with Capacitors? Balance for WHAT? Heavy Load? Light Load? And what particular 3 Phase Motor should I even consider, because the leading RPC manufacturers talk about their custom-made Baldor motors with "special" windings. And do I need to have a voltage regulator between the RPC power and robot controller?

These are some of the questions I have. There are no books that I've found that would help answer these questions. I've searched the web for information for more hours than I'd like to admit. But yet, here I am...still hoping to learn what I need to know.

Someone who has traveled this route themselves could probably answer these questions in 10 minutes.

So Thanks Anyway,

Deke

Hi panic mode,

Thanks for your response... If I have neglected to include information or describe my situation well, I can assure you that I had not intended to be unclear or make it difficult for members to help me.

I have posted several times over the past year asking for help in getting my robot powered without having access to 3 phase electricity. I have a Motoman UP6 arm with XRC controller, and I've tried posting in the Yaskawa/ Motoman forum, but thought that perhaps someone with another brand of robot might have had some experience using a Phase Converter and creating pseudo-3 phase power to run their robot - and so that's why I tried the General forum.

Let me try to correct my previous post and give some more specific information:

First, I live in the USA, New Jersey to be specific. I am installing the robot in my garage, where I have basic residential power service... Single Phase 220-240VAC.

Much of what I've included in my previous posts is information I've gotten from members on RobotForum or articles I've found online. I am technically proficient to a degree, but I have no robot-specific education or job experience. I am also not an electrician or electrical engineer, and I never even heard of Delta or Wye power until I started learning what I would need to power my robot.

What I've learned so far is mainly from users like yourself, Robodoc, Skyefire, dieselxj, Pcarbines and others who replied to my posts kindly giving me their opinions... The issue is that many of you seem to have differing opinions: Robodoc told me that I would need real 3 Phase power from the utility grid and nothing else would work. Others said that a phase converter would work well if it were large enough to handle the large current variations that the robot would cause.

I'm sorry... I just realized that I got Delta mixed up with Wye ... I think it was RoboDad that mentioned "corner grounded delta"... Robodoc had said that the controller needed to have a Neutral bonded to the chassis, and I believe he had mentioned 5 wire with a neutral being necessary.

The RPC I was thinking of is the American Rotary AD-5. My robot is roughly 2kVA/ 2HP, so I'm considering a 5HP RPC and hoping that will be large enough. Here is a link:

http://americanrotary.com/products/view/…l-smart-series/

But I've also been curious about cobbling together my own manual-start RPC with a 3 phase 5HP motor, various capacitors to help balance the load, heavy duty contactors, etc.

In the literature for my robot, it says Power Requirements are approx 1.6kVA. I've also read up to 2.5kVA in other brochures/spec sheets. Some members have said that I probably won't need the full-rated current capacity, as overloads can be tolerated for short periods.

If members that have gone through this (with whatever robot they have) will respond with their experiences/conclusions, I'll be able to use that knowledge to help figure out the best move forward for me.

To end this very long post, I'll just add: If you (or anyone) has any thoughts on the above and wants to respond, I'd be happy to give you any info you might need to help me sort out my dilemma.

Many Thanks!

Deke

Hi Guys,

I’m still trying to find out what I need to power my Motoman UP6 w XRC Controller.

I’ve learned that I need to supply 5 Wire corner-grounded Wye power with a Neutral in addition to the 3 Phases and safety Ground.

What do I need in order to meet this requirement?

I imagine the RPC outputs 3 Phase “Delta”with no neutral. Is there a way to wire this to create a neutral? Or do I need an additional Delta to Wye transformer?

Also, how critical is the RPC itself? Is a 3 Phase induction motor acceptable to use with oil-filled capacitors, etc to balance the load, or are there reasons why a 3 phase generator is needed for the Idler motor?

Can someone PLEASE try to explain this stuff to me so I can move forward?

Has anyone used an RPC to power an industrial robot? Do you have any experiences or revelations you can share with me?

Many thanks!

Deke

Hi Panic Mode,

Thanks for your reply. That really helps explain why there are so many varying opinions about this, with some people swearing that you can't use an RPC at all, while others say they used one and it worked fine.

It seems like there are so many variables based on the particular design of a robot that I would probably need an advanced degree in Electrical Engineering to really understand what is going on from one second to the next... So I'll leave that solution aside for the time being... I'll try to get some more detailed power requirement info from the Yaskawa product techs... I don't know if they would be able to tell me anything that would help.

If I had to choose between the RPC's sheer power-handling capacity in Amps - versus the stability of the output voltage (how much variation there is above or below 208VAC... ) which do you think is more critical?

I wonder if any type of voltage regulator would help on the output of the RPC as well...

I'd be interested to hear any further thoughts you have...

Many Thanks!

Deke

Hi Nation,

Thanks for your response and help.

Some members on the forum have said that robots can't use the 3 phase power that comes from a rotary phase converter, and I'm not sure exactly what issues I should be looking for, or whether they are just trying to burst my bubble.

I thought this was true for VFD's because they chop the sine wave and distort the power with weird harmonics and noise, but I thought that RPC's produced a generally clean sine wave. I thought the only potential issue was the voltage range that had to be within a certain tolerance, and that the RPC had to be large enough to handle current demands.

Do you know anything about what I should be concerned with?

Many thanks,

Deke

Hi Robodoc,

Long time! Thanks for answering.

We’ll, I’m not even going to think about getting 3 phase power run to my house, so for me it’s one of the 1to 3 phase converters. I’ll have to do the best I can… What’s puzzling is that I’ve gotten responses from some people who have told me they use a Rotary Phase Converter and have been having no problems. I’ve been trying to learn what exactly causes problems - so I can avoid them. I know a VFD causes problems because it chops the sine wave, but I thought RPC’s were cleaner, especially if they were tuned with capacitors…

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Deke

• Hi Guys,

  I finally found a used 1999 era Yaskawa Motoman UP6 robot arm with XRC controller and I need help with powering it... I bought the robot from a surplus site and don't know if it works, or how much it would cost to get it working, so I don't want to go nuts on expensive solutions at this time.

  I have single phase residential 220/240V power and I'm considering a Rotary Phase Converter (RPC) to create 3 phase power for the robot.

  I've been on the phone with a few manufacturers of RPC's and I would like to get some input on what they are telling me...

  My UP6 robot has a payload of 6KG and uses 3 phase 220V power. kVA rating is 1.5kVA, and Horsepower is supposed to be about 1.5 as well.

  I am proceeding with the knowledge that the voltage requirements are critical, and there can't be any voltage fluctuations more than about 4%.

  Looking over the websites for RPC manufacturers, the common thought is to DOUBLE the Horsepower needed to find the right size RPC.

  So if I conservatively rate my robot at 2HP, I would need 4HP. I have priced a few RPC's from American Rotary and North American Rotary, and they both have 5HP converters that seem like they would be a good fit. But when I called these companies, they immediately tried to up-sell me on more expensive RPC's: Either 10HP models or Extreme-Duty models which are about double the price.

  Can anyone tell me what I should be looking for? Is it the size of the Idler Motor/Generator or the Circuitry /Capacitors/Relays etc. that will determine if the unit will power the robot without any faults or damage?

  Is there some way to tell the Peak current that the robot could draw - and how this affects the stability of the 3 phase converter?

  Many Thanks,

  Deke

  •  Edit

Hi Guys,

I finally found a used Yaskawa Motoman UP6 robot arm with XRC controller and I need help with powering it...

I have single phase residential 220/240V power and I'm considering a Rotary Phase Converter to make 3 phase power for the robot.

I've been on the phone with a few manufacturers of RPC's and I want to get some input on what they are telling me...

My UP6 robot has a payload of 6KG and uses 3 phase 220V power. kVA rating is 1.5kVA, and Horsepower is supposed to be about 1.5 as well.

I am proceeding with the knowledge that the voltage requirements are critical, and there can't be any voltage fluctuations mote than about 4%.

Looking over the websites for RPC manufacturers, the common thought is to DOUBLE the Horsepower needed to find the right size RPC.

So if I conservatively rate my robot at 2HP, I would need 4HP. I have priced a few RPC's from American Rotary and North American Rotary, and they both have 5HP converters that seem like they would be a good fit. But when I called these companies, they immediately tried to up-sell me on more expensive RPC's: Either 10HP models or Extreme-Duty models which are about double the price.

Can anyone tell me what I should be looking for? Is it the size of the Idler Motor/Generator or the Circuitry /Capacitors/Relays etc. that will determine if the unit will power the robot without any faults or damage?

Is there some way to tell the Peak current that the robot could draw - and how this affects the stability of the 3 phase converter?

Many Thanks,

Deke

Okay, well Thank You both for your thoughts.

Hi Lemster68,

Thanks for your suggestion... I did try UShip and got a bunch of quotes, but they all were above what I thought was a fair price... The whole LTL Freight system is so convoluted that I really can't figure out what a "Fair" price is. They all say it's based on weight & dimensions, multiplied by the Freight Class of the items... But the Class is so subjective - or at least it seems that way to me - that it's laughable! I've had quotes that say it's Class 75, and quotes that say 150 and even higher. This drastically changes the total price. But everyone I've talked to (in emails) seems totally set regarding their quotes - and is unwilling to budge on price. Do you know anything about this whole world?

Thanks.

Hi HawkME and Panic Mode,

Thanks for your responses.

I’m shipping from IL, USA to NJ, USA.

It’s an old Motoman UP20 Arm & Controller, unknown working condition, weight around 1200 Lbs. bought for less than $1000, and I’m hoping to ship for under $500. I’ve been getting quotes from 700.00 to $2000.

Am I being unrealistic? I had the equipment crated because some LTL companies wouldn’t touch it otherwise, and I thought that would make the rate lower, but it seems it had the opposite effect!

Thanks for any thoughts!

Hi Guys,

Does anyone have any recommendations for LTL Freight companies that are reasonable and have experience shipping robots in the Midwest?

I have a Robot arm and Controller that are crated and ready to go, but so far have only found Sky High rates, or companies with terrible reputations.

Does anyone have any thoughts or experiences to share?

Thanks!

Hi Skyefire.... Thanks for replying.

I've heard some warnings about Nachi robots... You just make me start to believe them! I've read a bunch of posts all over this website - and others (as many as I could find!) about buying used robots. I know that I would be breaking two Cardinal Rules if I bought a used robot and controller: 1) No Guarantee and 2) No Full torture Test of All parameters and systems before buying.

Beyond this, I may be breaking another rule: 3) Don't buy Old Obsolete Robots that have questionable Support and a Lack of Parts, etc.

But the fact is, I don't have Thousands of dollars to spend on a newer, better system purchased from a dealer or reputable re-seller. So here I am - foolish and ignorant - trying to learn to swim right off the coast of Seal Island in South Africa, with Great Whites circling all around! I just don't know how else to do it except to jump in and hope for the best!

I've heard that Fanuc has gotten real stingy and makes you buy their $$ Blessings with their old robots.

I don't know about Kuka and ABB... I haven't found anything small enough to work for me. What do you think of Yaskawa/Motoman? How about Kawasaki?

I could use all the advice you can give me. But I am determined to try SOMETHING, and I don't want to join a Robot Club at a local school, etc.. I have software that can even out most bumps from the robot's motion, so if bearings are worn or it has some slop, it probably won't be a deal breaker for me.

Thanks for any other thoughts you have!

Hi Everyone,

I am considering buying a surplus Nachi MC20-01 with older AX Controller... I haven't been able to find any info about them online other then basic specs!

Does anyone have any experience with them?

I am in US and trying to cobble together a robot at low cost for a one-off personal project (not as part of a line) as a camera platform for product cinematography.

I found one that looks to be in decent condition other than a lot of wear on the robot arm.

Any thoughts about this as opposed to an even older - but more common robot like a Motoman UP20?

Are parts and service even harder to find than old Yaskawa's?

Thanks for any Thoughts...

Deke

Hi FishersMoto, ClaudiuA, and Lemster68,

Thank you all for your replies.

I actually just bought an older Motoman UP20 Arm with XRC controller in questionable condition.... I'm trying to have it shipped to me (LTL trucking) without spending more than I paid for the pair! I'll find out soon if it is a working unit and hopefully be able to get it going if it is not working.

I'm sure I will have plenty more questions in a week or two!

Thanks again,

Deke

Thanks Automattic21!

I've primarily been looking at older Yaskawa/Motoman robots... maybe I'll check out ABB as well, though they don't seem to be as common from what I've seen.