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KSU sending worrisome messages

  • Wall-E
  • February 16, 2024 at 10:00 AM
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  • Wall-E
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    • February 16, 2024 at 10:00 AM
    • #1

    Hi !

    KRC4 robot here : KR210 R3100 Ultra with KSS 8.3

    Recently, I have been having randomly after a cold start the types or error messages attached.

    As soon as I move the robot in T1, some scary warning about "general servo error" or "Intermediate circuit voltage too high" pops up.

    After performing a new cold start, things are generally back to normal.

    Does this mean I should start looking for a used KSU ?

    I already changed two of them in less than 2 years ; I'm beginning to believe that they have been under-engineered.

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  • DannyDJ
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    • February 16, 2024 at 12:06 PM
    • #2

    If you already changed 2 KSP, would be good to start looking that robot is not overloaded or at least check load_data. Possible causes for this message are in the attachment either load is to great for the robot used, or you can try to adapt program velocity(maybe this issue is occuring always at the same positions) and you already changed 2 KSP. Also check if your WV configuration matches the real KSP's. I also had an issue where KSP in WV was for 64A but inside the cabinet it was KSP 40A. And the controller didn't complain at all. But parameters for drive were higher with 64A than for KSP40A by comparing the .xml configuration files.

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  • Wall-E
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    • February 16, 2024 at 2:59 PM
    • #3

    Hi Danny,

    The tool weight is 40kg ; that should be fine for a KR210.

    Could you tell me where to find this WV configuration file ?

    Thanks !

  • DannyDJ
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    • February 16, 2024 at 3:45 PM
    • #4

    Ok, then robot isn't overloaded, but you already exchanged two KSP(I hope they were changed with the same type), so the problem shouldn't be in the KSP then. Are these only messages that robot displays? You could also inspect the connections (connectors, poor connection) going from motors to cabinet and inside cabinet from X20 to KSP or even connections between KSP's and KPP. You could try with KPP, but I guess then you would have general servo errors for all axes, not just for the wrist.

    You have your KSP's in the project structure windows when you download or open the project.

    For general servo errors possible causes also in the attachment. So doing cold boot second time resolves the issue. You could try the procedure with Reload files as in the attachment. Is your robot set to hibernate or coldboot?

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  • Wall-E
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    • February 16, 2024 at 4:54 PM
    • #5

    Thanks Danny,

    I don't use WorkVisual because I don't have a free ethernet port in my bay :thinking_face:

    This is helpful nonetheless.

    I guess I'll spray some of that electric contacts cleaner in there, see if it does any good.

  • panic mode
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    • February 16, 2024 at 5:13 PM
    • #6

    If the drives are blowing up i would definitely measure input voltage (both phase to phase and phase to ground, that is 6 measurements). and make sure that KRC is using settings and catalog elements that match supply voltage. Also check ballast resistors... If not connected or wrong type or damaged, they will not be able to their job and intermediate voltage will get higher when decelerating or stoping robot.... Because in such case motors work as generators and put energy back into DC bus (intermediate circuit). Also make sure load values are correct.

    1) read pinned topic: READ FIRST...

    2) if you have an issue with robot, post question in the correct forum section... do NOT contact me directly

    3) read 1 and 2

  • panic mode
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    • February 16, 2024 at 5:15 PM
    • #7
    Quote from Wall-E

    The tool weight is 40kg ; that should be fine for a KR210.

    what proof you have for that? Load is not just mass ..

    1) read pinned topic: READ FIRST...

    2) if you have an issue with robot, post question in the correct forum section... do NOT contact me directly

    3) read 1 and 2

  • Wall-E
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    • February 16, 2024 at 5:28 PM
    • #8
    Quote from panic mode

    what proof you have for that? Load is not just mass ...

    How can I check the ballast resistors ? Are they inside the KSP ?

    I'd hate to open these babies...

    Hi Panic, the errors come when the robot is cold and haven't budged a micron, so I'm pretty sure load, mass, inertia, gravity have nothing to do with my issue.

  • panic mode
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    • February 16, 2024 at 7:34 PM
    • #9

    you stated before that messages show up when you try to move robot:

    Quote from Wall-E

    As soon as I move the robot in T1, some scary warning about "general servo error" or "Intermediate circuit voltage too high" pops up.

    1) read pinned topic: READ FIRST...

    2) if you have an issue with robot, post question in the correct forum section... do NOT contact me directly

    3) read 1 and 2

  • DannyDJ
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    • February 16, 2024 at 7:41 PM
    • #10
    Quote from Wall-E

    How can I check the ballast resistors ? Are they inside the KSP ?

    I'd hate to open these babies...

    Ballast resistors are located in the back of the controller, inside of the controller they are marked with R1 in R2. They each have 22ohms and they are connected in parallel. Also i would try with reload files, if you still didn't tried it.

    Because errors come and go, so there is no option but to check and rule things out one by one, like panic mode advised, and really check things by measuring etc. and for example one could have 40kg mounted on the KR210 but those 40kg could be mounted also 5m away, not directly on the flange, also one could have 40kg mounted on the flange and $LOAD values way off (for example for M 230 kilos entered, center of gravity way off, inertia) and the robot would tried to work with those values regardless if there is only 40kg mounted.

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  • Wall-E
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    • June 28, 2024 at 6:08 PM
    • #11

    Recently, the problem became systematic : "general servo error" was either on Axis 6 or 4.

    Since it happened just after a restart, and while moving ANOTHER axis, like axis 2, I tried the cold reboot with "Reload data", shut down, waited, restarted, and the problem had gone away.


    Thanks to DannyDJ for his suggestion.

  • panic mode
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    • June 28, 2024 at 8:02 PM
    • #12

    what is the EXACT version of KSS? There are few dozens of releases... early releases are obviously more prone to bugs - that is why later releases exist. if this is an older variant of 8.3 I would look into upgrading KSS to something more recent. if you have usb recovery stick and know how to use it, you could do it yourself, license and tech options are same as long you are within 8.3 family.

    but if the drives have been replaced more than once, i would have a good look at power grid and anything related.

    so far several suggestions were made - check voltage, check load, check ballast resistors etc. but nothing came out ...

    1) read pinned topic: READ FIRST...

    2) if you have an issue with robot, post question in the correct forum section... do NOT contact me directly

    3) read 1 and 2

  • Wall-E
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    • July 15, 2024 at 12:27 PM
    • #13
    Quote from panic mode

    what is the EXACT version of KSS?

    My version of KSS is 8.3.422 ; for other data, please see attached.

    This whole problem seems to be a bug indeed, because each time it comes back, I just reboot with the option "Reload files" and it goes away.

    The power grid... well, it's the French power grid, what can I say ? Maybe it's terrible, I don't know.

    As per the voltage checks, I checked before and after the bay's main breaker :

    403V between each phases and 230V between each phase and ground.

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  • Wall-E
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    • July 15, 2024 at 12:36 PM
    • #14
    Quote from DannyDJ

    and for example one could have 40kg mounted on the KR210 but those 40kg could be mounted also 5m away, not directly on the flange, also one could have 40kg mounted on the flange and $LOAD values way off (for example for M 230 kilos entered, center of gravity way off, inertia) and the robot would tried to work with those values regardless if there is only 40kg mounted.

    Attached is a photo of my tool, and the load data, common to all my tool settings, since the end mills weight is mostly negligible.

    Did I input a crazy value ?

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  • panic mode
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    • July 16, 2024 at 12:07 AM
    • #15

    the mains is spot on and symmetrical which is good.

    in comparison, here i have dealt with couple of plants with considerably higher voltage (627-629V phase to phase instead of expected 575V). that is already nearly 10% over the expected so it does not take much of a disturbance to take it out of spec.

    the picture of tool has nothing to scale and robot is folded so one cannot even tell if it is mounted correctly.

    1) read pinned topic: READ FIRST...

    2) if you have an issue with robot, post question in the correct forum section... do NOT contact me directly

    3) read 1 and 2

  • Wall-E
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    • July 17, 2024 at 9:05 AM
    • #16
    Quote from panic mode

    the picture of tool has nothing to scale and robot is folded so one cannot even tell if it is mounted correctly.

    You are right.

    Well my robot is exactly the size of a KR210 :smiling_face:


    I had a KUKA technicial come over yesterday, and he advised me to get a 13KVA transformer to filter the current from the mains.

    He said I could go with other models than the "official" KUKA transformer.

    I found this one .

    Any recommandations ?

  • panic mode
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    • July 18, 2024 at 4:00 PM
    • #17

    and how exactly do you plan to use it?

    1) read pinned topic: READ FIRST...

    2) if you have an issue with robot, post question in the correct forum section... do NOT contact me directly

    3) read 1 and 2

  • Wall-E
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    • July 23, 2024 at 9:39 AM
    • #18
    Quote from panic mode

    and how exactly do you plan to use it?

    Not sure what you mean. It's going to sit between the mains and the cabinet, regulating the sine waves of the current being fed in my robot system.

    In French, it's called "Trensformateur au point milieu".

  • Wall-E
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    • July 23, 2024 at 2:21 PM
    • #19

    Side question, as I want to purchase a spare KSP 600-3x40.

    I found a used one, but I'd like to be 100% sure it is compatible with my system.

    Actually, in my cabinet, I already have two KSPs that don't have the same "Artikel-nr".

    One is "HW Version 1A" and the two others are "HW Version 2A".

    The used one I found has "HW Version 3A", supposedly meaning it is more recent, but... will it blend ?

  • panic mode
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    • July 23, 2024 at 2:49 PM
    • #20

    well... pardon my French... but... how exactly are you planing to use it...?

    did you think this through? did you read the datasheet?

    because that unit is not an isolation transformer. it is an auto-transformer. input and output side operate at different voltages. pretty sure France like rest of the continental Europe uses 400VAC phase to phase... and European KRC controlling KR210 is also meant to work on three phase 400VAC.

    if you wire the transformer in a step down configuration, you can connect mains to 400VAC side and you will get lower voltage (240VAC or whatever) on the output.

    if you wire it in a step up configuration, you cannot feed it from 400VAC mains - that is too high for 240V side of the transformer. and even if you did do that, output voltage would be 666V which is too high even for KRCs meant for North America.

    or... do you plan on using two of those transformers connected back to back?


    btw. from what i know, KUKA controllers come in 8kVA and 13kVA. anything over KR60 is fitted with 13kVA. but transformers that KUKA uses are "optimized" to be on the light side. which is why they have temperature switch embedded into transformer windings and this switch is monitored by the controller.

    External transformers do not have that. so common practice when using external transformers is to pick something larger. you may want to check with your electrician on selecting proper unit that meets your electrical code.

    1) read pinned topic: READ FIRST...

    2) if you have an issue with robot, post question in the correct forum section... do NOT contact me directly

    3) read 1 and 2

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