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Kinda Lost between all of those options

  • Robot2
  • July 3, 2023 at 10:36 AM
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  • Robot2
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    • July 3, 2023 at 10:36 AM
    • #1

    Hello,

    So my problem is a bit odd I guess but my company is about to buy a robot for cutting composite parts, the robot will most likely be a kuka robot (thats why I am pisting here) runing a KRC4 with KSS8.3.
    My question is about the way of controlling it .

    Since I will be the one in charge of controlling it I need to chose the right software for that and all I can say is that with my low experience in the field and no experience with CAM software I am lost.

    I briefly understand that you can either use a CAD/CAM soft to create toolpath and then use some kind of offline programming software to transform it into KRL.
    But I also ehard that you could use CAD/CAM and upload the post processed G-code directly to the robot using Kuka.CNC module.

    I would like to know which one is the best method(easiest) considering your experience/knowledge and if offline programming software are the best which software should I go for?

    I read a thing about KRL being approximate and kuka cnc gcode being absolute but I dont think I understood.

    anykind of help would be greatly appreciate,

    thanks in advance,
    Robot2 :smiling_face: .

  • Fubini July 3, 2023 at 11:03 AM

    Approved the thread.
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    Leon
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    • July 3, 2023 at 12:55 PM
    • #2

    You also have the option where the CAM post processor can generate native KRL. Robotmaster (Literally Mastercam for robots) is one of those.

    What software is best for you depends on your needs (and budget).

    Every problem has a solution, that isn't the problem. The problem is the solution.

  • Robot2
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    • July 3, 2023 at 1:17 PM
    • #3

    Oh I did not know that you could do that :face_with_open_mouth: .
    We already have native CATIA CAD files and we want to cut the real part using a robot.
    Tho we dont have the process module for CATIA (the one that can create toolpaths) and a lot of the options available are very expensive considering the relativly simple task that we are trying to achieve.

    So our goal is to find the easiest and most affordable option that can respond to our need but frankly I dont know the limits of any of those soft.

    For example from what I understood robotDK is not capable of creating toolpaths and I dont know if it is worth it to get another software + RoboDK for what we are trying to achieve.

    thanks for the response,

    Robot2 :smiling_face: .

  • Mentat
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    • July 3, 2023 at 1:38 PM
    • #4

    Would be valuable to know (for cost/benefit) if these parts will be constantly changing- the program creation will be an ongoing process or if these programs will be created once and used for years.

  • panic mode
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    • July 3, 2023 at 1:43 PM
    • #5

    Kuka.CNC is one of the most expensive options. If i recall it was more than $10kI USD. One of the advantages is the it could run huge NC programs. You can check READ FIRST for more info and getting documentation from Kuka Xpert portal.

    1) read pinned topic: READ FIRST...

    2) if you have an issue with robot, post question in the correct forum section... do NOT contact me directly

    3) read 1 and 2

  • Robot2
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    • July 3, 2023 at 1:50 PM
    • #6

    Well for now it is just to prove to the company that robotizing application such as cutting can be a game changer in term of efficiency as well as safety for employee

    (this is my intership project btw) .

    And I would say that in our industry and with the rate that we are producing rihgt now .

    It will be most likely an on going process because we have to make a lot of different parts but at some point we would have to reuse the program because it is kind of a cycled operation of manufacturing.

    thanks for the kindness,

    Robot2 :smiling_face: .

  • Robot2
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    • July 3, 2023 at 2:08 PM
    • #7
    Quote from panic mode

    Kuka.CNC is one of the most expensive options. If i recall it was more than $10kI USD. One of the advantages is the it could run huge NC programs. You can check READ FIRST for more info and getting documentation from Kuka Xpert portal.

    Yeah a bit expensive knowing that you still need to generate the nc toolpath using another soft.

    Does it gives better results or just usefull for running huge nc programs ?
    Unfortunatly I cannot acces Kuka Xpert portal for now I am still waiting for my company email. :neutral_face:

    thanks,

    Robot2 :smiling_face: .

  • Mentat
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    • July 3, 2023 at 2:16 PM
    • #8

    If you just need a proof of concept then I would say write the KRL code by hand. Not very innovative, but short of running free trials of the programs, cheapest solution. Keep in mind the full project might not get a green light even after successful prototype if the plant management decides they can't afford the space/insurance/blood sacrifice/investment/disruption.

  • Robot2
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    • July 3, 2023 at 2:54 PM
    • #9

    I understand that it might be clever to go with KRL programmation but the proof of concept that I am supposed to make is nearly automated part cutting :confused_face:.
    So even tho it is expensive I need to come with a thing that can be easy to use with what we already have...

    Can I use free trials ? In one month I think I can have pretty good results.
    I know that the project is likely to not get a green light but I mean I will not be here for too long so ...
    thanks for your interest and help,

    Robot2 :smiling_face: .

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    SkyeFire
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    • July 3, 2023 at 3:55 PM
    • #10
    Quote from Robot2

    a lot of the options available are very expensive considering the relativly simple task that we are trying to achieve.

    I hate to say it, but there's nothing simple about it. Even for a CAM path that appears simple to the human eye, there's a lot of computation involved, and a lot of software engineering required to make sure it works with sufficient reliability across all use cases.

    Also, the cost of creating this software doesn't really "scale down" -- the cost of creating a good CAM software for "simple" tasks really is any less than creating it for "complex" tasks, except when you make complexity jumps like going from 3-axis to 4+ axes. And a robot has 6 degrees of freedom that have to all be taken into account, so you're almost automatically in the expensive end of the pool.

    Quote from Robot2

    For example from what I understood robotDK is not capable of creating toolpaths and I dont know if it is worth it to get another software + RoboDK for what we are trying to achieve.

    I know that RoboDK can generate 3D printing paths for robots -- I would assume CNC paths are possible. But I would recommend talking to someone at RoboDK. I do know there's a module in RoboDK named KUKA_CNC, although that might only be a postprocessor for KUKA.CNC.

    OctoPuz is supposed to have similar abilities. And I know there's a KUKA Post-processor for Fusion 360, though I've never used it. Still, for a low-cost proof of concept, it might not be a bad place to start.

    What kind of cutting job is this? Would it be doable with a simple 3-axis CNC path, or would it require something more equivalent to a 4- or 5-axis CNC? For a simple 3-axis path, it's possible to create a simplistic post processor to convert GCode commands into KRL commands. I built one several years ago just to show that it was possible (attached). I wouldn't use it for production, but for dead-simple GCode (simple G1 commands, no Arc/Circle commands, etc), it worked.

    Files

    GCode.zip 13.4 kB – 7 Downloads
  • panic mode
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    • July 3, 2023 at 7:05 PM
    • #11
    Quote from Robot2

    all I can say is that with my low experience in the field and no experience with CAM software I am lost.

    is diametrically opposite of :

    Quote from Robot2

    the proof of concept that I am supposed to make is nearly automated part cutting :confused_face:

    ......

    In one month I think I can have pretty good results.

    i would say good luck...

    you can contact manufacturers for trial versions of software. some may have it. some may have trials that last a month though i would not be surprised if that is limited to shorter interval (week or maybe two) if at all. you may have much better success talking to CAD/CAM companies directly and requesting demo.

    1) read pinned topic: READ FIRST...

    2) if you have an issue with robot, post question in the correct forum section... do NOT contact me directly

    3) read 1 and 2

  • Robot2
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    • July 4, 2023 at 8:24 AM
    • #12
    Quote from panic mode

    is diametrically opposite of :

    i would say good luck...

    Yeah maybe I am not being self conscious about my capability ...
    the thing is that I am supposed to have studied those thing but without hands-on experience I would say that its very confusing.

    Quote from panic mode

    you can contact manufacturers for trial versions of software. some may have it. some may have trials that last a month though i would not be surprised if that is limited to shorter interval (week or maybe two) if at all. you may have much better success talking to CAD/CAM companies directly and requesting demo.

    Will do that I'll try with robotmaster/robodk since it look like they pair pretty good

    Thanks,

    Robot2 :smiling_face: .

  • Robot2
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    • July 4, 2023 at 8:31 AM
    • #13
    Quote from SkyeFire

    I hate to say it, but there's nothing simple about it. Even for a CAM path that appears simple to the human eye, there's a lot of computation involved, and a lot of software engineering required to make sure it works with sufficient reliability across all use cases.

    Also, the cost of creating this software doesn't really "scale down" -- the cost of creating a good CAM software for "simple" tasks really is any less than creating it for "complex" tasks, except when you make complexity jumps like going from 3-axis to 4+ axes. And a robot has 6 degrees of freedom that have to all be taken into account, so you're almost automatically in the expensive end of the pool.

    yeah it does make sense that the complexity lead to much bigger prices.

    Quote from SkyeFire

    I know that RoboDK can generate 3D printing paths for robots -- I would assume CNC paths are possible. But I would recommend talking to someone at RoboDK. I do know there's a module in RoboDK named KUKA_CNC, although that might only be a postprocessor for KUKA.CNC.

    OctoPuz is supposed to have similar abilities. And I know there's a KUKA Post-processor for Fusion 360, though I've never used it. Still, for a low-cost proof of concept, it might not be a bad place to start.

    I will look onto those thanks.

    Quote from SkyeFire

    What kind of cutting job is this? Would it be doable with a simple 3-axis CNC path, or would it require something more equivalent to a 4- or 5-axis CNC? For a simple 3-axis path, it's possible to create a simplistic post processor to convert GCode commands into KRL commands. I built one several years ago just to show that it was possible (attached). I wouldn't use it for production, but for dead-simple GCode (simple G1 commands, no Arc/Circle commands, etc), it worked.

    It would probably be possible in a 3 axis CNC path but maybe required 5 axis for it to be validated by my internship supervisor.
    I saw a post from years ago featuring your post processor I might try with it.

    But I still need to generate the toolpath for it to be working and I have no clue on how to generate a 3 axis toolpath .

    Thanks for your interest and answer,
    Help me a lot processing everything,
    Robot2 :smiling_face: .

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    Leon
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    • July 4, 2023 at 10:30 AM
    • #14

    Another thing to consider is that with a cnc machines it is relatively simple to go from a calculated toolpath to a accurate cut product. With robots this is a lot more difficult. Robot base and tool must be calibrate perfectly to get an reasonably accurate cut.

    Robots are a lot less stiff and you will notice that.

    I have looked in to getting CAM software for our robots a few times and each time i come to the same conclusion: To expensive! (for us)

    I have gone for a different approach. Most of the product i have to cut need relatively simple work. a circle hole here, a slotted hole there. stuff like that. So i made some default functions to do just that. so in code you get simple commands like: cut_circle(60,6) which means cut a circle 60mm in diameter 6mm deep.

    I do get more complicated work now and then, but i can calculate those tool paths by hand. it is bit tedious but certainly not impossible. As long as i don't have to do that each week i am not buying cam software.

    Every problem has a solution, that isn't the problem. The problem is the solution.

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    SkyeFire
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    • July 5, 2023 at 5:14 PM
    • #15
    Quote from Robot2

    But I still need to generate the toolpath for it to be working and I have no clue on how to generate a 3 axis toolpath .

    Ah. Well, that's not too hard. Doing it well is what gets professionals the big bucks, but for a proof-of-concept where you can muddle through with trial-and-error, it's doable.

    I found MeshCAM to be a great entry-level tool for generating a toolpath, but the free trial only lasts 15 days. Wouldn't hurt to play with it in that time frame, though. Very educational without drowning you in options.

    Fusion360 is probably the free option with the most gradual learning curve, and there's lots of tutorials online. The free version is limited to 3-axis toolpath output, but the Pro version is probably the cheapest path to 5-axis I've ever seen, barring perhaps FreeCAD.

    FreeCAD is open-source and supports plugin modules that will do CAM output. I've always found it hard to get into, though. Last I checked, FreeCAD had experimental support for 5-axis, but it still had a ways to go.

    MeshCAM is a "standalone" path generator -- that is, you import a 3D shape (usually STL) into it, describe the stock you want to carve that shape out of, and hit the "generate" button. FreeCAD and F360 are both integrated packages -- you would need to import the 3D model of what you want to create into their Design workspace, maybe make tweaks to it, then shift to the Manufacturing workspace. At that point, it works a lot like MeshCAM, just with a lot more options.

    To put it very simply, you give the CAM program the shape you want to end up with, and the shape (stock) you're starting with. You describe the materials, speeds, and tools you're using, select the postprocessor for the machine you want to run the path, then hit the button and stand back. The CAM engine will spit out a G-Code file written for the dialect of your specific machine.

    That's where the serious complexities start, and it can feel like trying to drink from a fire hose. I would recommend just downloading one of these packages, CADding up a fairly simple shape, and work your way up the learning curve in small steps. If you have a robot you can play with, starting with some simple cheap materials (like wood) would be ideal. Make your mistakes early and cheaply, get a handle on getting the robot to go where you need it to without breaking the cutter or smashing into things, then work your way up to the actual production material.

    Quote from Leon

    Another thing to consider is that with a cnc machines it is relatively simple to go from a calculated toolpath to a accurate cut product. With robots this is a lot more difficult. Robot base and tool must be calibrate perfectly to get an reasonably accurate cut.

    Robots are a lot less stiff and you will notice that.

    This is a definite issue. On a CNC machine, you define a 0-reference point (location and orientation) in the workspace, then physically define the same point on the object you're making. Most often, a corner of the stock material is used, but you can also use a key feature on the part pallet or vise. For a robot, you'll need to do the same thing, but it can be a bit more complicated. Best option, IMO, is to define a Base in the robot using the 3-point method, and pick something you can both define in the CAD/CAM model, and physically touch-off to in the real world.

    Also, no robot will ever be as accurate as a CNC, or as stiff. So don't expect tight tolerances. There are some tricks you can maybe use to make it a bit better, but we should save that until you need it.

  • Robot2
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    • July 26, 2023 at 9:32 AM
    • #16

    Hello guys :smiling_face:

    I am back thanks for all the comments it really helped me focus on the real things that I needed to do to get the project going.

    But I encountered a problem in the development and I wanted to talk with you guys in order to know if you could answer.

    I got the RoboDK trial license and I have been trying different things with it and ithink that the software alone will be sufficient for the use that we are planing on doing .

    I dont know if I mentionned it but I wanted to use a turntable to maximize the workspace. The problem is that I dont know how to make my software now where is the part that I want to cut in the real life, Is there a proper way to make the code adapt to the real position of the apart either by using renishaw probes, cameras or even Uraco ? If so do you know software/company that sells those programs/tools

    Right Now I am trying some sketchy thing with RoboDK API and open-cv sift detection algorithm simulating 2 cameras at the same time trying to get a 3d image or something near to calculate an estimation of the part pose and trying to move it accordingly in the turntable.

    Thanks in advance,
    Robot2 :smiling_face: .

  • Mentat
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    • August 1, 2023 at 1:12 PM
    • #17

    Would linking the turntable to the kinematic system as a synchronous axis not be easier, simpler and have less points of failure?

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