Non-standard motors for external axes

  • Hi All,


    I have a question regarding the use of non-standard motors for external axes. So far, Kuka (UK) has not been able to answer my question :smiling_face: :smiling_face: :smiling_face: :smiling_face: .


    The smallest compatible servo motor offered by KUKA is MG_8_40_45_S0 (Art No. 00-131-269).

    This motor is basically a Siemens 1FK7 motor (exact part No. is 1FK7022-5AK71-1YH3-Z S24).


    Looking at the 1FK7 data sheet (attached) …

    There is a smaller motor (20 mm shaft height) within the range: 1FK7015-5AK7. This is the size I want to use. It also is rated for 600 VDC.


    Question: can this motor be used in combination with the KUKA Servo Drives (KSD) (KSPsr12 / KSP20 / KSP40)?


    I found a document on using non-standard motors with KRC-2 (MotorenSpec V2.4en_23_04_2003.doc)? Is there a similar document available for KRC-5 (have the requirements changed?). Does the 1FK7015-5AK7 satisfy these requirements?


    In general, I need a 40 mm frame servo that can be used as an external axis (i.e. kinematically integrated). There will actually be up to 5 external axes for this application. Can anyone suggest a solution?


    Regards, Arthur


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  • if the motor is same family (same voltage and same feedback type) and just smaller size, it should be no problem as long as you lower the current limits. larger drives can drive motors that need less current.

    1) read pinned topic: READ FIRST...

    2) if you have an issue with robot, post question in the correct forum section... do NOT contact me directly

    3) read 1 and 2

  • Thanks panic mode.


    Is lowering the current limits done in workvisual?


    Does anyone have a manual describing the available motors compatible with the KR C5/4 controllers? There appears to be nothing on Kukas website.

  • the simplest option is using KUKA motor, they do have a name plate and normally one just need to select it from the list.


    things are harder when using non-supported motor as servo motors have many parameters. integrating different motor is not very straight forward but one can try using similar motor as a template and adjust parameters as needed.

    some of the key parameters are voltage, type of feedback. those cannot be changed.

    others can be easily set such as number of poles, current limit, type of thermistor etc.


    KUKA has document on this (servo motors) so one can use that as a reference to identify parameter values and what parameters matter.

    1) read pinned topic: READ FIRST...

    2) if you have an issue with robot, post question in the correct forum section... do NOT contact me directly

    3) read 1 and 2

  • This is really helpful, thanks.

    "KUKA has document on this (servo motors) so one can use that as a reference" any idea which technical manual I can consult for that information?

  • This is where I'm at:


    As mentioned above:

    KUKA MG_8_40_45_S0 (Art No. 00-131-269)
    ... is equivalent to ...

    Siemens 1FK7022-5AK71-1YH3-Z S24


    If I modify the part number to get a smaller frame size I have:

    1FK7015-5AK71-1YH3-Z S24

    which is shown on the Siemens website:

    https://mall.industry.siemens.…=1FK7015-5AK71-1YH3-Z+S24

    ... but ...


    I have reviewed all of the following threads on this forum (post #):

    126156, 89420, 121217, 137555, 138202, 33071, 173498, 183253.


    It appears some of the part numbers can't be identified within the Siemens catalogue (they are proprietary to KUKA).

    "Y" "Z S24"


    Seems like I have two options:


    - Request KUKA/Siemens to produce a motor to the specification: 1FK7015-5AK71-1YH3-Z S24 (seems unlikely to succeed)

    - Choose a different resolver type and adjust the parameters accordingly in WorkVisual. I don't have experience of using Workvisual so I'm not sure if this would be feasible?


    I have been chasing up Kuka and Siemens but neither is being cooperative in sharing info about the resolver type "Y" and whatever "Z S24" is.


  • Siemens servo catalogue shows part number breakdown...

    Starts with product family such as 1FK6, 1FK7 or whatever. it is followed by motor size etc.

    You can also see there type of feedback (quadrature encoder, absolute encoder, resolver, ....).

    Finally there may be some options or customizations for specific client. Those are identified by code after Z and details are not revealed to 3rd party

    They could be anything, for example different paint or whatever.


    So if you are hoping to get THAT info revealed, i would say you are wasting your time. I would focus on part number portion before Z.


    Similarly asking KUKA for help with non-KUKA motor is fine but they will need you to provide sample motor, and pay a fee. Then if the motor passes the tests, they would provide you with custom wov catalog for your KSS version.


    I have seen that for other motors, for example on a servogun.


    If you hope to get there on your own, well you ARE on your own.

    1) read pinned topic: READ FIRST...

    2) if you have an issue with robot, post question in the correct forum section... do NOT contact me directly

    3) read 1 and 2

  • Here's an updated list of resolvers compatible with KR C4 and some additional documentation. I've received a quote from Kuka as panic mode advised. Since Kuka wont release a list of motors they have already tested (own-goal?) next step will be to look around existing motor manufacturers to see if they have a motor within spec. I'm patient :smiling_face:


    Supplier Type Pole pairs Supplier 2 Type2
    Tamagawa TS2640N663E70
    Siemens V23401-R3710-E101 3
    Siemens V23401-D1010-B101 3
    Siemens V23401-T2510-D209 3 Tyco 5-1393048-0
    Siemens V23401-T2610-D209 3 Tyco 5-1393048-2
    Siemens V23401-T2614-D209 4 Tyco 5-1393048-3
    TE V23401-T2J64-D309 4
    Tamagawa TS2640N6005E409 5
    Tamagawa TS2605N71E64 1
    Tamagawa TS2620N1021E11 1
    Tamagawa TS2620N81E11 1
  • I would focus on part number portion before Z


    Update: Thanks for the clue panic mode. I've done some more digging and I think the resolver type "S" may be compatible with the Kuka servo drive modules.


    Here's what I'm basing this assumption on:


    Kuka Art No.: 0000-136-925 (Designation: MG_11_60_44_S0) ...

    ... has the following Siemens Part No.:

    1FK7032-5AK71-1SH3-Z S11


    So If I were to pick a Siemens motor with the Part No.:

    1FK7015-5AK71-1SH3

    ... do you think I can be reasonably confident I could drive the motor. As you mention below, I would be able to lower the current limits in WorkVisual.

    if the motor is same family (same voltage and same feedback type) and just smaller size, it should be no problem as long as you lower the current limits. larger drives can drive motors that need less current.

    I've also compared the Kuka RDC Specification (from the above document KR_C4_Anforderungen_Motore_en.pdf) with the Siemens multipole resolver (Type S). For reference, see: "1fk7_g2_config_man_0218_en-us.pdf"

    https://support.industry.sieme…8_en-US.pdf?download=true).


    I don't have all the resolver parameters but at least the ones below match up.


    Data Kuka RDC Specification Siemens multipole resolver (Type S) (example part No. 1FK7015-5AK74-1SH3)
    Motor to resolver pole ratio 1:1 (number of pole pairs corresponds
    to number of pole pairs of the motor)
    Input voltage 5.3 to 7.0 V 2 to 8 V
    Supply frequency 8 kHz 5 to 10 kHz
    Transmission ratio (TR)2 max. 0.5 / min. 0.45 -5% 0.5 (± 5 %)


    What do you think my success rate will be with this approach? Do you think the 1FK7015-5AK71-1SH3 will work? There's no way of finding out what the "Z S11" refers to. If it is only KUKA branded name-plate that would be fine, but I'm wondering if the connectors will be different.

  • i have no time to dig into Siemens catalogs myself, but have already shared pretty much everything i could think of. connectors come in different sizes but it should be same form factor and pinout for small and medium motors. you can check that.

    1) read pinned topic: READ FIRST...

    2) if you have an issue with robot, post question in the correct forum section... do NOT contact me directly

    3) read 1 and 2

  • Hi,


    This issue has been resolved. I have two solutions:


    I've been told that a Tamagawa motor with flange dimensions of 40x40 mm will be available in the KUKA supplementary axis portfolio for the KR C5 (from approx. April 2023). This is roughly in-line with my project time-line, so might be worth the wait.


    If I wanted to build the cell right away, I could get a Siemens 1FK7015-5AK74-1SH3-Z X01. I could send the motor to Kuka and have them:


    - Create motor/servo files

    - Add a KukaDrive element to the WorkVisual catalogue.

    - Create ExternalKinematics catalog element with WorkVisual catalog editor and KukaDrive element

    - Create test project in WorkVisual

    - Commission and test the motor


    The costs are lower because it is a Siemens motor rather than a third-party motor validation. For anyone looking to do the same, you need to contact Kuka Product Support in Germany.


    Thank you panic mode for your help!

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