Integration of Colombo Spindles

    Hello All!


    Just wanted to start off again by saying thank you for all the help this forum has provided. I am not knowledgeable enough to help people but I have definitely learned a lot by reading many post. Last time I posted Skyfire and PanicMode helped me tremendously for my Master Thesis (which was a huge success!), even mentioned you guys in my Thesis argument, so again thank you.


    Now I turn to the forum again for help. This time it is regarding the integration of a Automatic Tool Changing Spindle manufactured by Colombo (Model RC 90). I am trying to integrate it to my KR 30 HA which uses a KRC4.


    The KRC4: V8.3.32
    Options installed:
    BoardPackage
    EthernetKRL
    GripperSpotTech
    KRC4 EthernetIP
    Kuka.CNC
    LoadDataDetermination
    MultiSubmitInterpreter
    ProCoinOS 4-1


    I have attached a diagram of my understanding of how the wiring should work and the setup that I would like along with some questions in the diagram.


    Basically what I want to achieve is to have my VFD (Delta MS300) which receives 480 V routed into the KRC4 and then have that power sent to the head piece that comes out of my A6 mount from my power supply system (A3) (I believe it is the x96 connection, not sure). The MS300 VFD has a ethernet port which is how I assume the program would control the VFD and the power that it is sending to the spindle. I want to control the VFD digitally and not through the potentiometer or keypad (for safety purposes).


    I also want the 4 sensors that come out of the spindle to attach to that same head mount. If you refer to my diagram you can see that one of the sensors (sensor 1) has a PLC that monitors the rotation of the shaft in the spindle, I do not know where I can put this.


    The other issue that I am having is that the cables that they have provided on the spindle are not long enough to reach the KRC4 so that is why I want to have it all sent to the A6 of the robot so I can cut the wires so they can connect right to that point.


    This is just the wiring portion, after that I have to deal with the programming portion, which I believe is done in WorkVisual but I have no idea how that portion works.


    I have more pictures to share if there is any need for clarification (Possible x96 connection, power supply on a3, ect..) . I just could not attach all my reference images for some reason.


    Thank you very much!
    - Jtube002

    To start off i can give a some tips.


      • first off you need some sort of basic I/O option to control the VFD en read out the sensors from the spindle. At minimal you need 6 digital inputs (sensors) and 1 digital output(start/stop spindle) and 1 analog output (speed,if you dont control your VFD through a standard communication protocol)

      • Second, a basic 24v power supply for your I/O

      • Third, i dont think you can control VFD through the ethernet port directly, you can probably buy an expansion for it so you can use one the standard protocols, devicenet,profibus or something. Note: if you go for this option you need the same option on your KRC4 as well

      • you could connect sensor 1 to above mentioned I/O option directly and have the have a rotation check in the sps.

      • Thermic sensor also connects to the I/O option, its a sensor that gives a signal when the motor gets to hot

      • Motor cable should go direct to the VFD, because that is your speed control.

      • If you are wiring the motor internal in robot, check if this cable is properly shielded. I made the mistake of using a cheap cable where the shielding was not enough and the robot did not like that. It will cause interference with the communication with the RDW card in the base of the robot and can cause problems with the internal encoder cables

    Every problem has a solution, that isn't the problem. The problem is the solution.

    Edited once, last by Leon ().

    Hey Leon,


    Thank you for the response.


    For 1 and 2:
    I have attached a picture of the I/O option I have. I am a little confused though because the EL1809 is digital input and the EL2809 is Digital output, I dont understand where the 24v power source is coming from or the ground. Sensor 2-4 have a brown cable which says its 24v (which I am assuming provides power to the sensor), a blue 0v cable neutral cable, and a black sensor cable (which I assume is what is actually transmitting the sensor state). The cable colors are different because the spindle is made by an Italian Company. Sensor 1 has a 24v Brown Cable and a blue 0v cable neutral cable. These have to be connected into the digital IO setup that I have but I am not sure exactly how, especially sensor 1 because I do not know what checking the rotation in the SPS means lol.


    My IO setup is all digital I assume I would have to get an analog output module and add it on in order to control the VFD if I dont control it through standard communication protocol. If not my IO is fine?


    For 3:
    I began to look at alternatives to control the VFD (When I called delta they told me I could control it through the RJ45 port it has but they have no idea about the communication with the KRC4)(by the way that is what the manual references it as and how Delta called it, but on the VFD cap legend that describes the connections it is referenced as a RS485 port which I read is compatible for communication with KUKA but to be honest I do not know the difference between RJ45 and RS485 and if they are interchangeable). I saw on the forum on this thread (http://www.robot-forum.com/rob…ling-a-vfd-via-devicenet/) that someone was trying to do something similar but it is a bit advance for me and I would have to do substantial research in order to execute. I wonder if there is a better work around in order to find a solution.


    Thermic Sensors:
    Ok great I just need to know how to read when it works. I am assuming it would be a true false statement, although I do not understand why the spindle comes with two of them.


    Motor Cable:
    I have sent an email to the manufacturer of the spindle to see how I can extend it because they only gave me 8 feet of length and I need at least another 5 feet to run from the flange, through the robot to the controller. I hope this does not add too much resistance to the cable and make it function incorrectly.


    Cable Shielding:
    Thank you very much for the tip, I definitely would have made the same mistake. I will make sure the get a good cable shielding when extending my cables.


    So to summarize from your post I need to figure out my connections for my sensors (could possibly be done with my IO setup, if I can figure out how to communicate with my VFD through a standard communication protocol). Although I still do not know where to put my 24v power can 0v cable to. I will also look into buying an expansion for my VFD that can support standard communication and how to setup my VFD using a standard protocol (I am assuming each KRC4 is different depending on what was purchased at the time, so I will reach out to Kuka and ask them what I have). I will contact the spindle company to ask them about the thermic cables and extending the cables and if I can extend the cables I will buy good quality shielding.


    Thank you very much Leon for your response it was very informative.
    I am a recent graduate Architecture student who is setting up the robotics lab at the university and it is sometimes difficult to find answers if I do not even know how to phrase the question so you have set me on the right path to continue setting this up.


    If there is anymore help that you or anyone else can offer I would greatly appreciate it. I have to have this set up next week and am kind of freaking out at the moment because there is so much to do and learn and not enough time. Job is kind of on the line here lol.


    PS: Where you able to see the Spindle Diagram I sent because I cannot see it on the thread anymore. If not I can add an open google drive link that has all the reference pictures I have taken if that is ok with the moderators.

    your EK1100 is not wired completely.
    top two terminals that have wires connected right now (as per our photo) are only for module on the left (EK1100 itself).
    you need to supply 24VDC for terminals below to have power to IO modules on the right...

    1) read pinned topic: READ FIRST...

    2) if you have an issue with robot, post question in the correct forum section... do NOT contact me directly

    3) read 1 and 2

    Its good that you already have I/O installed, the first thing i would check is if your vfd supports ethercat, because that is what is used to control your I/O. It then could as simple to put a cable from your el18090 to your vfd. Unfortunately i am not of more help here because i never used ethercat.


    The difference between RJ45 en RS485 is that RJ45 refers to the plug en RS485 refers to the serial communication.


    Your thermic sensor is probably a normally open or closed contact. so 1 cable is 24v and the other is sensor output. it does not matter what. You only have to look up if what type of contact it is.


    You only have to shield the motor power cable, the rest is not necessary but i cant hurt.


    What you call a PLC is just a type of a smart relais, connect sensor and power supply to right port and then you a normally open or closed contact which you can wire to 1 of your inputs.


    And yes i was able to see the spindle diagram


    just out of curiosity, why is that a architecture graduate is doing the work of electrical engineer? just asking because after you figure what parts you need and how to wire them you also have do the setup and software. I only saying this because this is a big hole your stepping into.

    Every problem has a solution, that isn't the problem. The problem is the solution.

    Hello Panic Mode

    Quote from panic mode


    your EK1100 is not wired completely.
    top two terminals that have wires connected right now (as per our photo) are only for module on the left (EK1100 itself).
    you need to supply 24VDC for terminals below to have power to IO modules on the right...


    I thought that the power was connected from the side of the module. I looked up Beckhoff's specs for the modules and that is what I understood. I will contact them directly to get an answer back, this is what I received from Kuka directly, I haven't installed anything into the cabinet myself, so I hope that it is correctly installed.


    Thank you again Leon,
    I will look into what you have written and make sure to work from there. I have attached an updated diagram of my current understanding with an update on how to give power to the spindle and the sensors (using a Harting Pin System). I also reached out to the spindle company and they told me to use the smart relay for sensor 1 so I have to figure a way of integrating that into the system. This diagram might have some information that you covered already because I sent it to the spindle company as well so they can get back to me on a couple of things, like the smart relay and the thermic sensors.


    The reason I am the one in charge of all this is because the grant was received through the Dean of the Architecture department. I was hired as a research assistant and set up the whole lab because I attended the college and it was going to be used heavily by architecture students. At the time that we were doing all this I did not know anything about robots at all and what resources to go to in order to make sure I was ordering everything correct. Had I known at the time of going through a company that purchases, installs, and integrates everything I would have definitely gone that route but I did not know so I am kind of out of luck because no system integrator that I have contacted is willing to do the job because it is either not the systems they normally work with or the University can not pay enough money. It is also a high pressure situation because I have about 200k worth of equipment that I have to figure out how to make them work together and I have students and faculty constantly coming up to me asking when it will be done. Slightly frustrating, but I have my head up and just being as resourceful as I can to solve the issue at hand.


    Thank you,
    Jtube002

    Quote from Jtube002


    I thought that the power was connected from the side of the module. I looked up Beckhoff's specs for the modules and that is what I understood.



    it depends on installed option and application. In general goal is to provide flexibility so that client can decide between using internal or external power.
    External power is needed when interfacing to circuit powered from separate source (galvanic isolation).
    Internal power is ok for cases where isolation is not needed.

    Thank you very much Panic. That diagram helped a lot to understand where my power is comping from. I do not know if I need isolated or not but I will check with the spindle company. I hope I do not that way I can just power straight from the cabinet, but in that case I need to figure out a way of getting something similar to a bread board (automation equivalent) in order to hook up my power lines a neutral lines from my sensors. I will look up on Beckhoff site to see if they have something like this I can order.

    there are several options available but... you need to know what you are getting into.



    Adding modules to Beckhoff I/O requires knowledge of power budget (current limits) and distribution. This means careful interpretation of the datasheets and calculations (If you have TwinCat, perhaps tools exist to assist with this).



    Simpler option (and cheaper and easier to get) is to just use common DIN rail terminals. Power terminals can be grouped and shorted using jumpers (center jumper for example). Best of all this is flexible and expandable and - much higher currents are possible than I/O can handle. This is important to keep in mind when powering I/O from same source.

    1) read pinned topic: READ FIRST...

    2) if you have an issue with robot, post question in the correct forum section... do NOT contact me directly

    3) read 1 and 2

    I have modified your wiring diagram slightly to connect the last cables, i have 1 question, the last wire to spindle is not labeled, seeing that it is only +24v en GND i pressume this is your toolchange signal? if that is the case the 24v should be wired to a digital output.

    Thank you Leon for the Diagram very much! The last cable is suppose to be sensor 1 (I forgot to label) and also the brown was not suppose to read as GND I mislabeled that by mistake. The Blue wire is the sensor wire and the brown is +12v wire (these are the ones coming from Sensor 1). Sensor 1 is suppose to see the rotation of the shaft to count revolutions, which in turn connects to the smart relay, and monitors if the speed up time is correct and if the shaft is done rotating in order to continue other operations. From my understanding of the 1 page document that came with the smart relay the blue and brown wires coming from sensor 1 are both inputs into the relay and then there is an output somewhere there than goes into my beckhoff input module.


    Panic is there something wrong with the diagram? Also thank you for the information about the beckhoff modules, I had no idea it was that complicated. I called them and told them what I wanted to do and they said that it wasnt an issue but I am sure if you are telling me how complicated it is they probably told me that in order to buy their product. I would much rather do what you suggested using a DIN rail terminal, that is what I envisioned using first but could not find anything like it until you mentioned it. Would the din rail work if I disconnected my current 24v and 0v to my EK1100 and put that as the input to the DIN terminal (in their respective positions) and then route power from that terminal back into the module and also take from the terminal what I need for my other sensors? I really like this option, it gives me a lot of flexibility.


    Again thank you very much :bravo: :top:, your guidance is clarifying a lot of questions I have had. Regarding the powering to spindle and sensors I think I am 90% sure of how to do it now (especially with the DIN rail suggestion). The only thing I am a fuzzy on is the sensor inputs, especially for sensor 1. From my understanding sensors 2 - 4 (sensor cable specifically) go plugged into a digital in, my thermic sensor has one that goes into a digital in and one that goes into a 24v+ and my sensor 1 goes into the smart relay and somehow comes out and has a digital input as well. By the way just a summary of the smart relay from my understanding is that it takes the rate in which the shaft spins (based on how many times the input sensor goes off in X amount of time) and feeds that into the relay, then the relay takes that information and outputs it into a True of False state, that state is feed through a wire and into a digital in on the beckhoff module. Just want to make sure I understand that correctly.

    Quote from Jtube002


    Panic is there something wrong with the diagram?


    [size=2]of course....[/size]


    [size=2]did you see wiring of speed monitor for example? how does that compare to circuit in manual?[/size]
    [size=2]do you know specs for all circuits (sensors etc)?[/size]
    [size=2]and i don't see line filter, safety etc.[/size]



    Quote from Jtube002

    I had no idea it was that complicated.


    [font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]if you say so... sounds like you read and understood datasheets and applicable safety standards...


    [/font]

    Quote from Jtube002

    I called them and told them what I wanted to do and they said that it wasnt an issue...


    and the comment was based on what values exactly? current rating? what did you tell them?




    1) read pinned topic: READ FIRST...

    2) if you have an issue with robot, post question in the correct forum section... do NOT contact me directly

    3) read 1 and 2

    Hi Panic, thank you for the response!


    Quote from panic mode


    of course....


    did you see wiring of speed monitor for example? how does that compare to circuit in manual?
    do you know specs for all circuits (sensors etc)?
    and i don't see line filter, safety etc.


    For the speed monitoring I wanted to control it through the controller/program so I called Delta (the company who makes my VFD) and they told me that the particular VFD model I own (MS300) was not EtherCAT compatible but it is compatible with devicenet and profibus; but to be completely honest, I am willing to set the speed manually to begin with since I am a little in over my head with just getting the spindle working that I do not mind manually setting the speed before hand and then eventually create the workflow for it to work through the controller/program. I just want the spindle to work correctly at this point.


    As far as the circuit is concern, the spindle manual does not come with any circuit diagrams for connecting anything. It is was fabricated in Italy so it is poorly translated to English and just outlines what the wires are for and what sequence the sensors have to be in order for it to change tools. (I can attach the manual if it is best for everyone to see).


    I am hoping the new diagram that Leon sent solves the most of my problems with where to connect my sensor inputs and you have mentioned that a DIN terminal is probably my best bet for 24v and 0v, which I agree with. The only part I need to study a bit more is the sensor 1 diagram. Is the inputs for sensors correct in the diagram assuming my power for 24v and 0v are coming from the DIN terminal?


    I do not know what a line filter is and the overall safety for my workcell is another bridge I have to cross when I get there but I hope it wont be as tedious as this. I have worked with the x11 connector before to override it so I can get my robot to work. I am just waiting for my light screen and e stops to get in so I can install those.


    Quote from panic mode


    if you say so... sounds like you read and understood datasheets and applicable safety standards...


    It is actually a huge compliment that you think that, I have been having to teach myself many things that are completely different than my background in architecture. Although, it might seem like I know more than what I do because I have just researched specifics for a certain problem but I struggle to form a wholistic view of things with 100% confidence and am always questioning myself to see if I did everything right because I really am completely new to this. Everything I have learned has almost been self taught and very difficult to get to this point since I have no formal training. This forum, like I mentioned before has really been a life line to myself and the University because of all that I learned and been helped.


    Quote from panic mode


    and the comment was based on what values exactly? current rating? what did you tell them?


    When I called them I told the that I had an EK1100 with a EL1809 and EL2809 attached to it and told them what pins had power on the EK1100. I asked them if I could add the EL9188 and EL 9189 by just putting them on the rack and sliding them into place and they said yes but I had to supply powers to some pins (I have them written in my office, I am at home now but I believe it was pins 2, 3, and 5) and that it should power the new modules. But from what you are saying this takes a toll on the power being supplied and I do not think they take that into account. That is why the DIN terminal sounds like a way better option, which I assume I can supply the 24v and 0v that is currently on my EK1100 and put it into the DIN terminal and run a wire from my DIN back into the EK1100 and then hook up the rest of my 24v and 0v contacts into the DIN terminal.


    Thank you very much,
    Jtube002

    Quote from Jtube002


    [size=2]For the speed monitoring I wanted to control it through the controller/program so I called Delta (the company who makes my VFD) and they told me that the particular VFD model I own (MS300) was not EtherCAT compatible but it is compatible with devicenet and profibus; but to be completely honest, I am willing to set the speed manually to begin with since I am a little in over my head with just getting the spindle working...[/size]


    [size=2]very well... but to be frank, i doubt people here are familiar with specifics of anything non-Kuka (and many things Kuka). this means if you want help, you shouold post links to relevant documentation. that would make it easy for those who may be able to chime in to give more specific comments. those could be VERY different from generic responses...[/size]




    Quote from Jtube002


    [size=2]As far as the circuit is concern, the spindle manual does not come with any circuit diagrams for connecting anything. It is was fabricated in Italy so it is poorly translated to English and just outlines what the wires are for and what sequence the sensors have to be in order for it to change tools. (I can attach the manual if it is best for everyone to see).[/size]


    [size=2]preventing access to information is not letting others to help. if you have a manual (even if it is in Italian or Klingon or whatever), it is still much better to share link to it than to have good samaritans guess and walk away... I just googled CAF15 and found nice image on eBay showing side of the unit with connection diagram right on the product. this is something you should have done and share it in the first post.[/size]




    Quote from Jtube002


    [size=2]I am hoping the new diagram that Leon sent solves the most of my problems with where to connect my sensor inputs and you have mentioned that a DIN terminal is probably my best bet for 24v and 0v, which I agree with. The only part I need to study a bit more is the sensor 1 diagram. Is the inputs for sensors correct in the diagram assuming my power for 24v and 0v are coming from the DIN terminal?[/size]


    [size=2]that is not the only part. i would say you did not start to scratch the surface yet. and what is with hope that something may work out? wouldn't you prefer to know for sure? $10 multimeter can measure voltage and current. sensors generally draw little current. actuators draw more. knowing exact current needs is essential when making any circuit. forum members may have the best intentions to help but without knowing details, everything is shot in the dark...[/size]




    Quote from Jtube002


    [size=2]I do not know what a line filter is and the overall safety for my workcell is another bridge I have to cross when I get there but I hope it wont be as tedious as this. I have worked with the x11 connector before to override it so I can get my robot to work. I am just waiting for my light screen and e stops to get in so I can install those. [/size]


    [size=2]safety comes first - it is not an aftertaught. and it's a more complicated than just wiring X11. this is forum for industrial robots and products you have are industrial grade. they need to be integrated in accordance with local industrial safety standards. most countries are using something that is related to ISO harmonized standard 10218. one requirement in my region is that tripping robot safety (EStop, user guarding etc) must stop not just robot arm but tooling as well. sending control signal (not a safety rated signal) may not be enough. same is with tool change... milling robots i worked with all had dedicated safety PLC to manage things like this. you dont want user program to be your only protection. what if robot suddenly decides to move fast and during move tool change is activated? you can have 5kg collet fly out over the guarding and kill someone. and if tool was also spinning fast, it could mow down several people. when i wark with students i encurage them to blow things up - when systems are low energy (think breadboard experiment). but this is real... so before you build it, ask yourself how much jail time is appropriate for loosing limb or life.[/size]


    [size=2]Line filter is placed between disconnect and VFD. it is used mainly to reduce effects VFD polution on power grid. milling robots i saw have filters both before and after VFD. [/size]




    Quote from Jtube002


    [size=2]It is actually a huge compliment that you think that, I have been having to teach myself many things that are completely different than my background in architecture. Although, it might seem like I know more than what I do because I have just researched specifics for a certain problem but I struggle to form a wholistic view of things with 100% confidence and am always questioning myself to see if I did everything right because I really am completely new to this. Everything I have learned has almost been self taught and very difficult to get to this point since I have no formal training. This forum, like I mentioned before has really been a life line to myself and the University because of all that I learned and been helped.[/size]


    [size=2]engineering jobs are all about facts and numbers. i would be really impressed if your team considered (calculated) even the most basic things cuch as load. :-)[/size]




    Quote from Jtube002


    [size=2]When I called them I told the that I had an EK1100 with a EL1809 and EL2809 attached to it and told them what pins had power on the EK1100. I asked them if I could add the EL9188 and EL 9189 by just putting them on the rack and sliding them into place and they said yes but I had to supply powers to some pins (I have them written in my office, I am at home now but I believe it was pins 2, 3, and 5) and that it should power the new modules. But from what you are saying this takes a toll on the power being supplied and I do not think they take that into account. That is why the DIN terminal sounds like a way better option, which I assume I can supply the 24v and 0v that is currently on my EK1100 and put it into the DIN terminal and run a wire from my DIN back into the EK1100 and then hook up the rest of my 24v and 0v contacts into the DIN terminal. [/size]


    [size=2] [/size]
    [size=2]hmmm, sounds like you will do anything to avoid fact checking. those IO moules are high density, they have a LOT of points but power is limited. [/size]
    [size=2]consider outputs... EL2809 has 16 of them and each is capable of providing output current of up to 500mA or 0.5A.[/size]
    [size=2]16x0.5A=8A. but if total current would reach that level module would melt. EK1100 power terminals are rated for up to 10A but this is rather exterme value. i doubt it can handle that except in brief pulses. just look at the size of the contacts (little blades are used to transmit power to other modules) and compare that with AC plug contacts which are only rated for 15A (13A really). blade contacts in IO slices are significantly smaller...[/size]

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