February 17, 2019, 08:03:03 AM
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 Can a Kuka KR200/1A work with CAD/CAM?

Author Topic:  Can a Kuka KR200/1A work with CAD/CAM?  (Read 721 times)

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February 07, 2019, 09:34:44 AM
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Dimko45


Hello everyone!

I recently became the proud owner of a Kuka Robot - KR200 / 1A. Unfortunately, it was only available without a control unit (KR C1). When I bought the robot, I did not know what I was going to do with it. But after some searching, I found out that you can operate a robot with CAD / CAM systems. So that sounds like a nice hobby project to me.

Here some details of the robot:
Brand: Kuka
Type: KR 200 / 1A
Serial no: 724163
Year of construction: 1998

Axis Motors: 1-2-3
Brushless Servomotor
1FK6100-8AF91-1ZZ9-Z S09
No. E K550 0225 41 021
3.77kW 9.50A
Art.nr: 69-225-463

Axis Motors: 4-5-6
AC servomotor
KK53Y-YYYY-017
No.E 98F19060
2.83kW 5.7A
Art.nr: 69-225-464

My question is, what is the best way (for my wallet  :icon_wink:) to make this older robot work with CAD / CAM?
Option1: Buy a KR C2-unit    -->   Robotmaster/Sprutcam    -->    Mastercam   -->   Autocad/Solidworks
Option2: Buy a Hicon Controller    -->   Mach4    -->    Mastercam   -->   Autocad/Solidworks
Or does someone have other Options??

Thanks to everyone!!!
Greetz Dimko45

Today at 08:03:03 AM
Reply #1

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February 07, 2019, 09:24:21 PM
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Spirit532


The Hicon controller is just a breakout box for stepper motor signals. The motors on the robots are not only servos, they also have analog resolvers for feedback.
The robot is just a bunch of metal parts and some servo motors that come out to bare wires.

Buying a brand new, or used KRC2 controller will be a pain, since it's likely to be incompatible with the robot, because the drives need to match or exceed in parameters(power).

I regret to inform you that you've basically shot yourself in the foot by buying just the robot.

February 08, 2019, 06:26:28 AM
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Dimko45


Hi,
I knew it would be difficult to find a suitable controller for this. But the robot was almost for free, so I thought I can try it.

A few questions for the specialists:
What is the difference between a KRC2 and KRC2ed05?
Can a KRC2 receive CAD / CAM data?

Thanks!

February 08, 2019, 06:30:31 AM
Reply #3
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Spirit532


Major hardware and software differences. It's all described on the forum.


No. You should also learn what CAD/CAM actually means before asking that question.

February 08, 2019, 08:35:49 AM
Reply #4
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Dimko45


I know what CAD/CAM means my friend.
Ik build my own cnc milling machine, 3 axis. And i want to expand it to 5 axis.
So ... cad/cam  i know.

I just didn't know if a Krc2 could handle it. Thats why i ask.
Because someone from Kuka Houthalen(Belgium) told me, he had seen a Kuka robot with a KRC2 unit work with Sprutcam.
But maybe it was a KRC2ed05 type he had seen, thats why i asked here what the differences was. Sorry
And for the record, Hicon can control sercodrives and servomotors.
But you are right, its most used with steppermotors, i admit.


February 08, 2019, 08:55:22 AM
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Prodigy


This is a industrial robot though,  not a 5 axis cnc.

I have done some high accuracy machining with fanuc robots.

Robot master is straight cam to process. But 40k

Eureka sucks for 14k

Robodk @ 3k is not a bad choice either way you need a controller.





Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


February 08, 2019, 10:09:17 AM
Reply #6
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hermann



Nobody knows how big Your wallet is. If You own Solidworks and Autocad, Mastercam and Sprutcam it can't be that small.  :icon_mrgreen:

No KRC can handle NC programs out of the box, You need a software option from KUKA for that, again a question of Your wallet size  :zwink:
"Option1: Buy a KR C2-unit   --> NC-Option from KUKA (don't know the exact name) -->   Robotmaster/Sprutcam    -->    Mastercam   -->   Autocad/Solidworks"

But You will not get happy with an old KRC1 mechanic and a newer (also outdated) KRC2, they have many incompatabilities.

I would prefer
Option3: Build an art object with the KR200   :biggrins:

Today at 08:03:03 AM
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February 08, 2019, 02:29:46 PM
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SkyeFire

Global Moderator
There's several factors in play here:

1.  The robot has to have a controller of some kind, and robot controllers are much more complex than CNC controllers, due to the different kinematics.  You're basically stuck either buying a good KRC2 with compatible hardware (check with KUKA, using the serial# of your robot, to find out what's compatible), or buying something like a Siemens 840D controller and a kinematic module for the 840D matched to your controller.

2.  Robot's don't speak G-Code natively.  You either have to buy an add-on module for the robot that "translates" G-Code on the fly, or use a CAM postprocessor that generates "native" robot code.  Either of these options have some additional risk, in that simply outputting 5-axis-style path programs can cause issues for the robot (kinematics, again), so your CAM toolchain really should be "robot aware" -- should have the capability to import a model of the actual robot you're using and simulate its motion, so you can avoid wrist flips, elbow collisions, and other motions that articulated robots have, and even the highest-level CNC machines don't.

3.  Robots simply don't have the rigidity or accuracy of CNC machines (closed vs open kinematics, parallel vs serial kinematics, etc), so even if you can jump the software gap, you won't get CNC-grade output.  Robots are designed for reach and flexibility, where CNCs are designed for rigidity and accuracy.


February 09, 2019, 11:23:59 AM
Reply #8
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Dimko45



Hi guys,

Thanks for the comments!

In the meantime I have learned a bit more about the possible solutions. It's indeed not so easy to work with an older robot.
I'm going to contact Siemens, to ask what the possibilities are. Because I think the Kuka servomotors are products from Siemens. (Correct me if I'm wrong).
I have already contacted Kuka, but the reaction is cold and short.
If it is not "PlugandPlay" then it is too difficult for these guys.

Thanks again everyone!

February 09, 2019, 12:44:51 PM
Reply #9
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hermann


Quote
...
I have already contacted Kuka, but the reaction is cold and short.
If it is not "PlugandPlay" then it is too difficult for these guys.
...
Those guys have to support their products.
The product is the robot mechanic with the appropriate controller used by professionals, not a single outdated mechanic for a project of a hobbyist.
May be You can ask Colin Furze  :uglyhammer2: https://www.youtube.com/user/colinfurze. He has amazing ideas.

February 09, 2019, 01:08:46 PM
Reply #10
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Dimko45



I certainly do not want to be disrespectful about the guys from Kuka, because they are very smart, but I just expected a bit more cooperation.
But as hermann said, they are there to serve the industrial manufacturers and not the crazy hobbists with their unrealistic dreams.
I must say they have given me some electrical diagrams that I am already very happy with.
Thanks for the link!! I'll check it out!!!

February 09, 2019, 05:59:05 PM
Reply #11
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Spirit532


KUKA will cooperate with you if you want to buy their products.
They will not cooperate with you if you want internal datasheets and a DIY tutorial.

I have a second-hand KR3 that I was able to get free phone support for, and they did their best to help(though, admittedly, failed, but only after it went all the way up to the lead regional engineer).

February 10, 2019, 07:18:20 AM
Reply #12
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javaman


Hello.
I have a similar question ..
A kuka robot with krc2 how easy is to add 7th axis and what it needs to do 7 axis milling(the 7th axis is the rotary table)
with sprutcam or powermill/hypermill or some other cam?
A krc2 will work without teach pendant for milling?

Also in a kuka robot like this posted kr200 can servo motors for 4/5/6 changed with other with the same flange & shaft diameter ?
Are these servos mounted to some gear/belt ?

February 10, 2019, 01:38:45 PM
Reply #13
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hermann


Quote
..
A krc2 will work without teach pendant for milling?
No, a KRC2 doesn't work at all without KCP.
Quote

..
Also in a kuka robot like this posted kr200 can servo motors for 4/5/6 changed with other with the same flange & shaft diameter ?
You can change it, but the parameters for the servo amplifiers have to be adjusted. May be it is impossible if they are incompatible.

Quote
..
Are these servos mounted to some gear/belt ?

Yes of course.

Today at 08:03:03 AM
Reply #14

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February 10, 2019, 09:39:29 PM
Reply #14
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javaman


How much costs a used krc2 teach pendant ?
If teach pendant exists is easy to add 7th axis to do milling with rotary table or need additional software/module except 7th servo&drive?
For marble milling what payload is adequate ? 150kg 200kg 220kg 250kg 300kg ?
krc2 has win xp or win98?
Is there any photo to see how shaft  for motors 4/5/6 axis are mounted to the gear/belt ?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 09:52:08 PM by javaman »

February 11, 2019, 03:04:58 PM
Reply #15
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SkyeFire

Global Moderator
KCP cost?  EBay.  But be aware, there are different generations and versions of KCP, so you need to be careful about finding one that's compatible with your KRC2.

Adding a 7th axis to a KRC2 is fairly simple, and well documented.

Payload... the heavier the robot payload, the stronger and more rigid the robot will be.  However, your ability to mill hard materials, like marble, will be limited, simply b/c robots are not nearly as rigid as gantry-style machine tools.

Early KRC2 has Win95, later versions have WinXP.

Modifying the motors on the robot is not a good idea, unless you really know what you are doing.  Even then, the KRC is designed to "fight back" against that kind of thing, b/c most of the time, changes to those parameters are accidental, by people who don't know what they're doing.

On most KRs of that generation, the three wrist motors are mounted to the back of the A3 casting.  All three motors mate to splined drive shafts that pass down the length of the A3 link until they reach A4.  The A4 driveshaft integrates to the A4 gearing at this point.  A5 and A6 shafts drive concentric gearing that pass through A4 and drive belt&gear combinations in the wrist.

https://youtu.be/iRKDfknqtbc

February 12, 2019, 07:28:01 AM
Reply #16
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javaman


Thank you for this explaining post..
What is the robot(model) done this milling job shown in the photo ?

February 12, 2019, 09:24:25 AM
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Leon


That is hard to tell from a picture alone, for instance KR150/KR210 and i think even the KR350 from the outside look the same the only difference is the motors and the counterbalance. Also to me the wrist could also be a non-standard wrist, or it is just painted for aesthetic purposes.
Every problem has a solution, that isn't the problem. The problem is the solution.

February 12, 2019, 10:51:18 AM
Reply #18
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javaman


Here are some more photos.
What cad-cam need to be done a work like this except a 7 axis robot (7 axis is the rotary table)?
Can a standard kuka for example kr210 with krc2 do this job ?

February 12, 2019, 02:18:29 PM
Reply #19
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SkyeFire

Global Moderator
Definitely not a KR350, that looks much different physically.
Since I don't think there's room for a counterweight under that cover that's occluding the A4-A6 motors, I'm going to guess it's a KR210, rather than a KR270.  But that's only a guess. 

February 12, 2019, 02:21:12 PM
Reply #20
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SkyeFire

Global Moderator
A KRC2 with KR210 and an added rotary 7th axis can probably do this.  But you will still need a CAM toolchain that properly simulates robot motion, and outputs KRL code, or add the KUKA-CNC option package to the KRC2 (possibility depends on KSS version) to let the robot parse "vanilla" G-Code.
Your final milling results will depend greatly on the robot calibration, 7th axis calibration, avoiding large wrist motions, and minimizing the milling forces as much as possible.

Today at 08:03:03 AM
Reply #21

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February 12, 2019, 03:00:29 PM
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panic mode

Global Moderator
silver wrist is mark of a Fortec
1) http://www.robot-forum.com/robotforum/kuka-robot-forum/read-first/
2) if you want reply about robot, post it in forum
3) read 1 and 2

February 14, 2019, 06:19:18 AM
Reply #22
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Dimko45


Does anyone know the minimum voltage/amps for the brake of these servomotors?

Axis Motors: 1-2-3
Brushless Servomotor
1FK6100-8AF91-1ZZ9-Z S09
No. E K550 0225 41 021
3.77kW 9.50A
Art.nr: 69-225-463

Axis Motors: 4-5-6
AC servomotor
KK53Y-YYYY-017
No.E 98F19060
2.83kW 5.7A
Art.nr: 69-225-464

Thanks!!


February 14, 2019, 08:57:42 AM
Reply #23
Online

javaman


24V is the voltage for sure.
the amps i think > 2a is ok

February 14, 2019, 03:45:25 PM
Reply #24
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SkyeFire

Global Moderator


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