Why is Fanuc raising the cost of used robots?

[robotexp]

hey Industrialrobotix,

  whatever you are saying is perfectly correct even I have seen suituation where ABB has come all the way to support there customer, they are more professional in there approach and technically sound too.

[boballen]

I keep checking back on the topics involving Fanuc charging $10,000 to relicense software on used robots but haven't seen anything to date from anybody justifying what Fanuc is doing. 10 to 15 years ago robots may have been one of the few things controlled by software in a computer, but today, pretty much every machine, like cars, refridgerators, microwaves, gadgets, toys, etc., etc. is controlled by software in a computer, so does that mean that the manufacturer of these items can declare "industry standard" and no one is allowed to buy or sell their used product unless they pay a relicense fee.
The reason these other manufacturers don't do this is they know it would be a PR suicide. Why would any company make it harder for a customer to buy your product new or used. You'd think that Fanuc would want their robots into as many factories as possible, figuring that once a company has their robot and gets used to it, they're going to probably stay with that product for the sake of common parts and maintenance.

Am I missing something .. can anyone help me understand how\why Fanuc can do this.

[Industrialrobotix]

Not sure what their reasoning is other than they know there will be thousands of robots coming out of automotive soon...and they are probably doing some damage control beforehand...but - it is PR suicide...there are folks who can't even buy a fuse from them right now without disclosing the robot "F" number, and subsequently being forced to purchase the license to the software on that machine (might I add that has already been paid for when the machine was originally sold)...  This is crippling to companies who otherwise could not afford a new machine.
I can see desiring some form of payment for phone support, but how can you deny parts to a willing customer ready to buy???  That is not very smart.  I sense trouble within Fanuc...desperation probably...clawing their way down...or just being complete a-holes to their customer base without regret...

Being a used robot reseller, they consider us "enablers" and want us to go away...  Instead of being forced to sell $10k worth of nothing to my customers, I have decided to stop selling all used and new Fanuc robots...it was a very big and difficult decision for us since we were geared toward Fanuc...
I say $10k worth of nothing because it is just that....their software is released in levels that go with control releases...as a new control is released, the software on the previous control is obsolete and no longer developed...and this is $7,500 to $10k for old obsolete software that has no more development or bug fixes?  RJ2 software was stopped at V4.40 in 1997....then went to 5.xxx with RJ3....so how can you sell an obsolete platform for a PREMIUM price when all you do is copy the crap onto FLOPPY DISKS? 

Fanuc's new policy "WTF" - "What's The F#"

Lets have an example of WTF:
1.) Joe the Plumber buys an Arcmate 100i RJ-2 at auction for $3,000....needs a few misc parts...
2.) Joe calls Fanuc...
3.) Fanuc CRC says - hello Joe....WTF? (What's the F#)
4.) Joe gives F#
5.) Fanuc CRC says - well Joe, your robot is registered to ACME...I'm sorry but you will have to transfer the license at a price of $7,500 plus options...and if you do not you are in violation of our intellectual property rights...
6.) Joe says - geez Fanuc...I only paid $3,000 for the thing...are you F%()* serious?
7.) CRC - well, sorry sir but you cannot purchase the fuse and teach pendant overlay until you purchase the software license...
8.) Joe - #)($)()(@)()(%
9.) CRC - sir you don't have to get violent....

and so on....  I can tell you I would not want to be a CRC tech having to answer to FURIOUS people all day!! Imagine the people who's facilities are shut down because of this....

Not sure of the legalities...and don't want to know to be honest...IMO - forget the drama....walk away....there are choices...and other places to get parts....hint....

[boballen]

thanks for the info Industrialrobotix ..... I think it's unbelievable  ... that the CRC techs actual tell people they are in violation of intellectual property rights.

From what I've been reading .. I think Fanuc is playing a gotcha game. They've allowed their used robots to be sold by the hundreds by GM and other automakers and now after companies have these robots working in place .. Fanuc wants to take advantage of these companies and .. in their minds ... try to destroy any competition in the meantime.
Seems like the only one who might be violating anything is the one who bought the robot from Fanuc originally .. so does that mean GM, Ford and all these automakers selling Fanuc's are liable for selling them.

If this is such a big violation, why didn't Fanuc sound the alarm years ago when the very first used robot was sold. Why didn't Fanuc start telling customers, resellers and integrators years ago .. hey do you realize that you are violating our intel rights. Funny how at the same time they are trying to declare violation of intel property they just so happen to raise the relicense fee to $10,000 to make it almost impossible for hardworking companies to comply even if they wanted to. Crazy way to do business Fanuc ... make customers wonder if you're going to sue them for selling your equipment or for buying your equipment. Anybody who sells Motoman, ABB, Kuka, etc. has got to love this .. since you can bet they are using this to discourage anyone from buying Fanuc.

I'm just amazed that no one from Fanuc has defended or explained their position .. since we all know Fanuc reads these replies.

[Mtech]

Put some copy write material into your message then they will respond.

[TylerRobertson]

I know for a fact though for other standard software, like CAD software - if you were to try and sell it to someone they would give you the same re-licensing shpeal. To me it also doesn't make a lot of sense. Now, these softwares also have 'maintenance' costs, in order to get updates and in some cases, support..  so in some cases you can just pay the mantenance cost, get to the most up to date version, and you're set.

But it's always the people trying to sell the software that have the hard time, not the recipient, because that's something they ask about right away, because with software you know to expect updates.

It's a little more subtle when you're buying a machine- you're not thinking about software.
I wouldn't want to be in that position.

[Industrialrobotix]

That is where I don't see the value in their re-license fees...it isn't like you are getting the latest and greatest software..  It would be the same as going out and paying $10k for AutoCAD 2003...it is obsolete...and machine's running AutoCAD 2003 cannot run 2010 or anything newer than 2003... AutoDesk has something similar going on with people selling used software on ebay...not quite the same as we aren't out peddling softare alone....it is part of a machine, which changes things a bit....By the way - AutoDesk lost that battle:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/05/court-smacks-autodesk-affirms-right-to-sell-used-software.ars

The outcome of that case if upheld will mean that Fanuc is in the same boat as Autodesk, and that they are sh@& out of luck w/ their software games...

If Fanuc was still developing say ArcTool 4.40 (for RJ2) then I could see them charging a license fee and maintenance annual fee...but they stopped making it in 1997....so what justifies $7,500 to $10k for that crap that comes on floppy discs??  Because it is proprietary??  Get real, everyone's software is proprietary...so is the software on my $20 calculator...duh...

Fanuc is making a very bold and misguided statement in my opinion and it is going to ultimately crush sales for them....

[boballen]

Thanks for the link to the AutoDesk ruling. This federal court ruling makes it pretty clear that Fanuc is unfairly charging customers $10,000 to relicense.
If anyone has any other links to similar cases I would love to see them.

[jpatterson]

Wow ... if Autodesk can't make their case then how can Fanuc think they can. When people buy AutoDesk products they buy for the software, when people buy a used Fanuc robot they're not even thinking about the software. Has anyone thought about contacting the "progressive advocacy organization Public Citizen" mentioned in the article about AutoDesk.

[Skooter]

Here is link to an update on the AutoDesk case:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/10/autocad-resale-ruling-a-messy-win-for-first-sale-doctrine.ars

Skooter

[boballen]

thanks for the update link ... to date I have yet to read something from any source that justifies how Fanuc can be charging people $10,000 if they dared to buy a used Fanuc robot. I would think that the backlash has hurt Fanuc's sales of new robots.

[Industrialrobotix]

Has anyone heard any new news on this?

[Lbase]

I have an RG that is registered with Fanuc and a RJ2 that is not. I have talked to tech support about this and they did not mention anything about violation of IP, just that they would not give me any help on the RJ without the registration fee.
Since they want so much for the reg fee, I cannot recommend (to managment) that we pay the fee since for a bit more we can get a used or refurbished robot, even if it is from Fanuc. I am in the process of updating the weld cell for the RG and when I move the the RJ to a new location if I need help I will just call a third party vendor. When I actually get a chance to spec something out for a new robot it won't be for a Fanuc.
I think this just means some extra work for the third party robot guys for a while until Fanuc shoots themselves in both feet and falls over...
I have already bought parts from other sources because they were so much cheaper.

[JonnyRotten]

I guess that is the thing that bugs me the most. I can either buy my parts from Fanuc, or buy my parts from some guy that buys fanucs at auction and tears them apart for resale. Rather then taking the money for the spare parts (at a premium even), they are forcing me to buy parts from other places. Plus the fact that it took me 5 weeks to get a fuse in for a robot that was registered with us, it's helping people in my factory make a strong case for used motomans...

[prc]

Dear all,

Being new to this forum, and unfortunately a poor Fanuc robot owner, I am not surprised by Fanuc's new practices - it is common to 'market leaders' so that they make ample space for the competition to surpass them!!

However, has anyone thought of the possibility of modifying/replacing the Fanuc electronics to a more reasonable manufacturer? After all, the mechanical parts, the servo motors, the encoders and the drivers (which are the expensive hardware) can remain the same and replace just the control which will give the pulses / signals to the drivers. This is especially applicable of course to old model owners who are also handicapped with respect to the facilities their controls offer - programming, file saving etc
I am pretty sure this modification / retrofit will not cost $10.000, to say the least!!!

My experience is in the plastics machinery, where my retrofits of the original controls with a PLC and an HMI and a bit of programming has always paid off, especially on old models. I do not insist that the same may apply with robots, but somebody with more experience on robots, please enlighten us!